Video Description:
Historic Preservation Board – November 2023
Read along below:
Unknown Speaker 0:01
Okay, I think we’re ready to get started here. We will now call to order the November 2 meeting of the historic preservation commission. Can we have the roll, please?
Unknown Speaker 0:12
Commissioner Sibley Here. Commissioner Fenster. Commissioner guy you here. Chairman lane here. Commissioner Norton. Yeah. Commissioner Jacoby.
Unknown Speaker 0:24
Commissioner Barnard.
Unknown Speaker 0:26
Great. Thank you all present and accounted for. Let’s see next on the agenda would be approval of the September 7. Meeting Minutes. We did not have a meeting last month.
Unknown Speaker 0:39
Are there any questions or corrections on the minutes from commissioners?
Unknown Speaker 0:45
For September 7,
Unknown Speaker 0:47
is
Unknown Speaker 0:53
Commissioner Barner. I just want to compliment Maria.
Unknown Speaker 0:57
Absolutely. Fine set of minutes is screamingly tough job. I don’t know many people. I definitely haven’t kept minutes for many organizations. I don’t think I could have done it. anywhere near that. Well, I was gonna compliment her publicly.
Unknown Speaker 1:16
Do I hear a motion in there that I moved to
Unknown Speaker 1:20
move to adopt the minutes. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:24
So I have a motion to have a second. Second. All right. I got a motion to approve the September 7 minutes from Commissioner Barnett and then second from Commissioner Fenster. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? None. Date The minutes are approved. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:42
Okay, then we have report from the chair. I don’t have anything specific to discuss tonight. So we will jump into communications from HBC staff liaison.
Unknown Speaker 1:54
Good evening to the Chair and members of the commission. Just a few items. Just wanted to give you an update on the tower of compassion. The Cultural Resource survey is still underway. I do you expect to deliverable in a few weeks. Carl McWilliams who is the contractor doing this, he unfortunately got hit with the latest COVID round. So therefore, he’s a little behind getting things done. But I communicated with him earlier this week. And he anticipates having that survey to, to me
Unknown Speaker 2:27
by Thanksgiving, hopefully. And I did speak with drawing a blank on his name. But there was a gentleman from the shippers office who reached out because they were interested in possibly doing something with it. And I said, Well, funny you should. So there’s a few of us on the same page. So I’m looking forward to seeing seeing that survey report. So speaking of surveys on the survey plan,
Unknown Speaker 2:54
that is pending a proposal from our consultant for that project. I am nudging constantly, so I should have some something for that, hopefully tomorrow. I was hoping for today, but things happen.
Unknown Speaker 3:12
So that’s the non update on that. The other thing to note is the saving places conference for 2024 is scheduled for January 31 through February 2 boulder. Registration isn’t open yet, but I will let you know once it is so that we can get interested people registered. One thing to note is that the conference does conflict with our February 2024 commission meeting. So we’ll need to make a decision about whether or not that meeting should be held or canceled. And then finally, just on the dickens slash Mary Allen barn,
Unknown Speaker 3:52
the final plat and construction plans for the associated development are still under review and should be finalized here in the very very, very near foreseeable future. Once the final plat is recorded, the ownership of the barn and associated properties will transfer to the city once the final plat is recorded.
Unknown Speaker 4:13
Hopefully that will happen that sometime in the next few weeks, once that happens, and once we have it and you know under city ownership, we will then be able to pursue grants for restoration as well as you know work on getting it landmarked and all that as well.
Unknown Speaker 4:30
And there is a monetary contribution that will go along with that as well for stabilization of the barn. Those are my primary items. If anyone has anything for me, I’m happy to answer any questions. Great. Thank you. Any questions for staff from commissioners?
Unknown Speaker 4:47
Nope. All right. Great. I think we’ll handle the date of the meeting. At our first meeting of the year, we usually take a look at the calendar and try to figure out what conflicts we’ll have so we can handle that. Sure. I just wanted to mention
Unknown Speaker 5:00
Make sure that was on everyone’s radar ahead of time. So definitely appreciate that.
Unknown Speaker 5:06
Okay.
Unknown Speaker 5:08
Commissioner Jacoby, sorry, I’m a little slow on the button here. Just to follow up on our last meeting, we did agree that as the commission to recommend we changed the code for allowing the planners
Unknown Speaker 5:26
to waive the fee for conservation overlay for neighborhood groups. And I believe Glen said that the liaison was going to take this to city council and talk to them before we decided to do anything. I’m wondering if that had been done yet.
Unknown Speaker 5:42
Going to defer to Glenn on this one. I don’t know, Rick.
Unknown Speaker 5:47
Yeah, that happened so quickly at the last HPC meeting.
Unknown Speaker 5:52
One thing I was going to talk about a little bit is, we did present this at April, one kind of the differences between SEO and historic preservation. I don’t think it’s really a stark preservation duty, but nevertheless,
Unknown Speaker 6:11
certainly made a recommendation, and I assume the delay is on is discussing that. I do know, counsel has a meeting every couple of weeks where they talk about various Commission Board business, so
Unknown Speaker 6:27
but I haven’t heard anything one way or the other.
Unknown Speaker 6:31
Thank you. Thanks.
Unknown Speaker 6:34
That does remind me though, for the zero reading on the realized
Unknown Speaker 6:40
demo ordinance. Are we still trending December on that? Or? Yes, we are December 12. Okay. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 6:47
Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 6:54
Commissioner Varner. Yes. While you’re looking at dates for next year, could last Could you also consider the when you when your what your thoughts are and when to do the retreat?
Unknown Speaker 7:07
Last, you know, sometimes if
Unknown Speaker 7:11
that gets delayed too long, or get deep into the first part of the year before we actually get together and talk about what we want to do that year. I think the one idea would be since the February 1 is probably not going to happen, that maybe we do the following week, and have the retreat that we can, since we’re going to, you know, read that we’d be in February, it wouldn’t be on top of another meeting since we wouldn’t have a meeting. So that would be my recommendation to do it that I don’t think we usually do it on a Saturday. Yeah, so it’d be the Saturday after the first would be the 10th. I think, just off the top.
Unknown Speaker 7:53
We can start looking for available rooms, meeting rooms that we could use for that. And
Unknown Speaker 8:00
hopefully without the confusion that we had with the last year’s meeting room. So
Unknown Speaker 8:08
I’ll work with Maria on identifying some spaces and possible days for that. So stay tuned. Okay, great. Yeah, but I do. But I like that suggestion. So thank you.
Unknown Speaker 8:19
Okay.
Unknown Speaker 8:22
Thank you. We’ll move on. So, next section is public invited to be heard this would be anybody who’s here to speak on something that is not on the agenda.
Unknown Speaker 8:32
Is there anyone here for that? Nope. Okay, then I’ll go ahead and close the public invited to be heard. And we’ll move on to the public hearing. For 545 Collier street, a remand by city council to reconsider a request for Certificate of appropriateness for window replacement at same.
Unknown Speaker 8:51
We’ve been advised by counsel that we ought to split this into
Unknown Speaker 8:58
potentially two parts
Unknown Speaker 9:00
in order to just follow the correct procedures. So the first thing that we are charged with as the commission is the actual remand, of the request for Certificate of appropriateness. So staff do you have you want to give us an outline on this or? Sure. So the way I have my presentation, ordered is very similar to the staff report. So update on kind of where we are, where we’ve been and the criteria outlined in the criteria for each and then you will consider first the certificate of appropriateness and then you if you do not approve the certificate of appropriateness, then you would can take up the certificate of hardship requests. So there will be two separate action items. Since the information the general information for both is pertinent to the other. I’ll discuss it broadly but then take it down and narrow and discuss the criteria for each. Okay, and just
Unknown Speaker 10:00
A guess a point of order and or organization? Can we have one hearing and just handle each of those two items separately as a commission? I think that’s fine. Okay. That would be cleaner. Okay. All right. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 10:19
Great.
Unknown Speaker 10:22
All right. So just as an a recap, this item is a public hearing on remand from the city council, regarding a request of replace all of the historic windows at 545 Collier Street. This particular home was originally built in 1886 as a single storey cottage, with a second story addition and built in 1901. This addition resulted in this home becoming a very early example of the American Foursquare style. And per the nomination package for the Eastside National Register Historic District. This is the only home of that style within that district. Additionally, there was a cultural resources survey prepared for this property in 2002, and that was included in the original packet for this item.
Unknown Speaker 11:15
So to recap the process for this request, the historic preservation commission denied the requested window replacement at its July 6, meeting with a vote afforded to the applicant that appealed this decision to city council who then remanded this request back to the commission with direction to consider hardship.
Unknown Speaker 11:36
So this evening, the Commission will consider the requested certificate of appropriateness and then consider the certificate of hardship if the COA is denied. Hardship is not a criteria that the city of Longmont Municipal Code allows to be considered as part of a request for CoA. And that is why these two items will be reviewed separately by the commission so through two different motions and actions.
Unknown Speaker 12:04
So no new information has been provided by the applicant for this remand, so I will refer the commission to the previous and current packets for this item. The applicant is seeking to replace all of the original windows in her home at 545 Collier Street, as noted on the screen, Miss Wolf’s rationale for replacement or efficiency and heat loss resulting in high utility bills inoperability of some of the windows safety concerns over the historic glass and limited availability of contractors who do window restoration.
Unknown Speaker 12:37
Several of counsels questions related to an energy audit that the applicant stated had been performed on the home. This audit was not submitted as part of the original COA application. So at that time, staff was not available to evaluate its findings as they related to the requested CoA.
Unknown Speaker 12:56
Following the appeal staff requested of this a copy of this audit on multiple occasions from the applicant following City Council’s remand of the item to the commission, but we never were provided this particular audit. So as a result, staff is still unable to evaluate whether the windows are in fact the primary source of heat loss in the home.
Unknown Speaker 13:18
So to recap, the applicant proposes to replace the existing windows with solid wood double paint and double hung windows from Mark the Marvin ultimate wood line, and a one over one style consistent with the existing windows. Ms. Wolfe has indicated that she plans to incorporate the original windows into a future Greenhouse on the property. So one thing to note is that the proposed replacement windows while they are solid wood are constructed from pine. Windows are the type and vintage currently installed in the subject property typically were originally constructed from hardwoods they were just different qualities of wood that were used when this home was built.
Unknown Speaker 14:04
So there are four criteria that must be met in order to approve a request for Certificate of appropriateness. All of these criteria must be met in order for a request to be approved. Staff is of the opinion that all of these criteria have not been satisfied and therefore, the standards for a certificate of appropriateness have been met. I’ll take you briefly through the criteria and my analysis of this. So as to criteria one. So these criteria are up on the screen for your reference. As to criteria one this property is not within a designated historic district that has adopted design guidelines. In the absence of design guidelines, the commission should use the Secretary of Interior standards for historic preservation and rehabilitation for evaluating exterior alterations to historic properties. These standards clearly state that historic features of a property shall be repaired
Unknown Speaker 15:00
Herrod rather than replaced unless they are deteriorated to a level where repair is not feasible. The applicant submitted photos of the windows proposed for replacement as part of the original application package. Staff remains of the opinion that the windows are not deteriorated to the point of requiring replacement and should be repaired. Therefore, this criteria has not been met.
Unknown Speaker 15:22
Regarding criteria to replacement of the original wood windows with modern replacements is discouraged for historic properties given the importance of windows for the integrity of architectural features. Photos of the existing Windows provided by the applicant again depict windows that are not beyond repair and appear salvageable. There are windows that appear to be in need of re glazing which would help reduce drafts and is actually a pretty simple process from from my experience. Additionally, storm windows as well as certain window treatments could further reduce drafts and substantially improve efficiency without removing key historic features of the designated property. Staff does not think this, this criteria has been met either.
Unknown Speaker 16:06
Regarding criteria three, the proposed replacement windows would match the one over one style of the existing wood windows. And additionally, these proposed replacements are solid wood rather than composite material aluminum or vinyl, which is consistent with the original material. However, as I noted previously, their proposed replacement windows are pine, while historic windows are typically manufactured from hardwood, which does account for their longevity.
Unknown Speaker 16:36
Further original windows are an important feature of historic homes and should be preserved whenever possible. As noted previously, the photos provided by staff do not depict windows that are not beyond repair.
Unknown Speaker 16:50
Staff is again of the opinion that this particular criteria has not been met.
Unknown Speaker 16:57
Finally, with regard to the fourth criteria, the proposed replacement windows are of the same style and similar material as the windows to be replaced. While this criteria has been met, all four of criteria must be satisfied in order to recommend approval of a certificate of appropriateness.
Unknown Speaker 17:18
So finally, I’ll discuss the possible certificate of hardship.
Unknown Speaker 17:27
The criteria contained in the code for Certificate of hardship are displayed on the screen. So with regard to the first question will compliance with the regulations result in substantial economic burden? The applicant has stated that high energy bills are one of the factors driving the requested window replacement. Staff recognizes that the applicants energy costs are relatively high. However, there are lower cost options that would improve the efficiency of the existing historic windows. The documented the documentation submitted by the applicant indicates that replacement of the existing windows would cost in excess of $43,000. According to the US Department of Energy storm windows can have a similar cost saving benefit as new double pane windows, but at approximately 1/3 of the cost. The US Department of Energy also states that energy efficient window coverings such as cellular shades and drapes can also reduce heat loss and produce energy savings.
Unknown Speaker 18:29
The Department of Energy does also note that tightly installed cellular shades can reduce heat loss through windows by 40% or more, which equates to about a 10% heating cost savings. Links to these web pages are included in the staff report.
Unknown Speaker 18:48
So additionally, the historic preservation commissioners expressed concern at the July 6 hearing that the windows may not be the only thing contributing to high energy bills. Staff has not been able to evaluate whether the existing windows are the primary cause of inefficiencies since the applicant did not submit the requested energy audit for review. Staff is not of the opinion that this first criteria for economic hardship has been met.
Unknown Speaker 19:15
So the next question is whether the property can be quote reasonably maintained in a manner consistent with code standards. As noted in the July 6 staff report, as well as comments from members of the commission, documented in the minutes
Unknown Speaker 19:31
from the meeting included as attachment to a window replacement is not the only option that would for addressing energy efficiency, stance and concerns. And there are other options that exist that would meet the Secretary of Interior standards for historic preservation and rehabilitation options that the applicant should first can pursue include installation of storm windows and replacing the existing windows. The applicant should also pursue insulating intent
Unknown Speaker 20:00
exterior walls which she indicated had not been done at the January July 6 meeting. As noted above, there are numerous options for increasing energy efficiency in homes with single pane windows that are readily available less expensive, and would not require replacement of the existing historic windows. And again, the applicant has not provided new information specifically request the requested energy audit. Therefore, staff really is not able to determine whether this criteria has been met because we just don’t have the information before us.
Unknown Speaker 20:34
So the final question is whether any other reasonable means of saving the property from deterioration demolition or collapse exists as established at the July 6 HPC. Hearing the existing windows are not deteriorated to a point where replacement is the only option and photo documentation of the windows show they are in relatively good condition. There are less drastic and more affordable measures than total replacement that may be undertaken to preserve the existing windows, while also increasing energy efficiency. A concern cited by the applicant at the July meetings are the lead times for contractors who specialize in restoration of historic windows, we do acknowledge that decidedly times are not ideal. However, they aren’t unreasonably long. I do hear from other folks in the building trades that it’s not just historic homes that contractors are tough to book it’s pretty much all homes across the board and all and in all disciplines, frankly.
Unknown Speaker 21:35
So as with the previous criteria, the applicant has not provided new information for staff to determine whether this criteria has been met.
Unknown Speaker 21:46
So one other item I will note
Unknown Speaker 21:49
that was in there was noted previous in previous reports is from the cultural resources survey. And that survey, which was again was done in 2002 indicated that there had been minimal exterior alterations to this home since 19 Since 1901,
Unknown Speaker 22:07
so it’s the windows are original to the home.
Unknown Speaker 22:14
So staff again recommends denial of the requested COA for total window replacement, finding that all four criteria have not been met as required by section 2.56.
Unknown Speaker 22:28
Regarding the certificate of hardship staff finds the criteria for economic hardship has not been met, given that there are lower cost alternatives to total window replacement.
Unknown Speaker 22:38
Regarding criteria for other hardships, the applicant did not provide the requested information, specifically the energy audit for staff to determine whether the review criteria had been met, so we aren’t able to make a conclusion on this.
Unknown Speaker 22:56
So
Unknown Speaker 23:00
before turning it over to the applicant,
Unknown Speaker 23:03
I’m just going to outline staff so the commission has four options regarding the certificate of appropriateness. As noted on the screen, you can approve the applications proposed. You can approve the application with conditions including approving and part ended eye and in part, you can defer action on the application based on the need for additional information, or you can deny the application.
Unknown Speaker 23:27
If you deny the application, then you would then you would then consider a certificate of hardship. The Commission options for the certificate of hardship are also the same. You can approve the application as proposed you can approve the application with conditions including approving in part and denying in part, you can defer action on the application based on the need for additional information or you can deny the application.
Unknown Speaker 23:54
And with that I will conclude my presentation.
Unknown Speaker 23:59
Thank you. Let’s see commissioners with questions for staff.
Unknown Speaker 24:06
No, yes
Unknown Speaker 24:13
yes, we’re not at a point where the only we’re not at a point where the only alternatives are storm windows versus
Unknown Speaker 24:28
rehab of the existing windows and frames.
Unknown Speaker 24:33
Are we
Unknown Speaker 24:36
not sure following the question?
Unknown Speaker 24:42
Well, I for one would want to consider alternatives before alternatives before considering storm windows.
Unknown Speaker 24:57
both interior and exterior
Unknown Speaker 25:00
rehab rehab of the pains and frames.
Unknown Speaker 25:05
I think we have an opera, we have an opportunity as a commission to make suggestions as to possibles solutions, right? It doesn’t we’re not mandating any kind of particular solution, other than evaluating the applicants request to specifically take the windows out and replace them. Right? What the alternatives pretty open ended.
Unknown Speaker 25:28
Okay.
Unknown Speaker 25:33
Commissioner Jacoby,
Unknown Speaker 25:38
this isn’t a question, but I do have a comment. I’ve thought about this a lot over the last three months, and I’ve been doing some internet searching.
Unknown Speaker 25:47
I looked at the Energy Star site that the applicant mentioned, because she suggested that interior storm windows were inferior to
Unknown Speaker 25:59
replaced double panes, which disagreed with the information that I saw, I went back to the ENERGY STAR site. And if you read it, which is probably in the information that was presented, I didn’t look at it. But
Unknown Speaker 26:13
20, you get 22% reduction in energy bills at our climate zone, with double pane windows, and you get approximately 20% reduction in energy bills with interior storm windows. So again, this data from ENERGY STAR that she was presenting was Miss presented and agrees with information I got from Lawrence Berkeley Labs. The other thing I wanted to mention, I looked at availability of interior storm windows, and there are several very good interior storm window companies in the central manufacturers that will measure them in detail and ship them to you. This includes endos Energy Saver, Windows window inserts.com, you measure your windows order the inserts, they’re installed, either by yourself, or maybe by a Handyman in those windows, which is one of the first ones doesn’t even require any mounting brackets. And so you can just install them yourself. I called the company and they said the turnaround time right now is three to five weeks. So if these were measured and ordered now they would be in probably before December. So there isn’t a hardship in getting into your storm windows that I can see right now. And that’s just the one manufacturer I didn’t call the others. Okay. And just to make sure that we’re following procedure here, these are questions at this moment. We want questions for staff, and then we want to have the applicant have an opportunity to to present their side of things before there’s discussion among the commission. So just Are there any more questions for staff?
Unknown Speaker 27:55
All right, thank you for the presentation, with the applicant like to
Unknown Speaker 28:01
make some comments.
Unknown Speaker 28:07
Hi,
Unknown Speaker 28:09
do you need to say or do anything before I start talking? I think if you just
Unknown Speaker 28:14
state your name, yeah. My name is Elizabeth Wolf. I’m the owner of 545 Collier Street in Longmont.
Unknown Speaker 28:24
Yeah, I didn’t submit the the energy assessment one because I was getting a new one from efficiency works because I have done a couple of small things to the house since I got that two years ago. And I thought it might be smart to do a new one.
Unknown Speaker 28:39
And two was personal judgment. The city staff have been working against my best interests for a few months now. So I didn’t feel like divulging totally unfiltered report.
Unknown Speaker 28:52
My fear was that they would look at all the other things that could possibly be done instead of the things that make the most impact. And send me home with a laundry list a very expensive laundry list of things to do. So no, I didn’t submit that to staff.
Unknown Speaker 29:07
Let me get to my notes. I apologize for the delay.
Unknown Speaker 29:12
So I didn’t submit any additional financials because I kind of laid that out at the first hearing. I think you guys remember I laid out my finances very clearly for you. One thing I did omit though, was my Excel bill. For some reason this totally escaped me. In last February, it was $711. That meant that it was more than 60% of my disposable income not 30 As quoted so I wanted to correct myself there. For reference last month, my bill was $526 and that was when the heat was barely running.
Unknown Speaker 29:48
I got as I stated I got a new assessment from energy work or efficiency works.
Unknown Speaker 29:54
I got the assessment for free because I’m far below 80% ami. They usually charge for it
Unknown Speaker 30:00
They got it for free, which was super cool. They’ve been really helpful. They identified some other air leaks in the house which kind of like got me hopeful.
Unknown Speaker 30:09
They did the air blower test and then he went around with the heat gun.
Unknown Speaker 30:14
One thing to note was there was no noted heat transfer in the walls, other than on the outside of my trim, which I clear cocked, which he said should call it should solve the problem with air coming in through or heat being transferred through the walls.
Unknown Speaker 30:36
He identified some other air leaks in my home including there’s the roof of my porch comes partially over the second storey and the knee walls not insulated. In fact, they don’t do that in new construction either I found out which is pretty crazy.
Unknown Speaker 30:52
So he suggested insulating the knee wall or the roof over my porch, which would require cutting access but well worth it. I think because there was literally when the blower test was going on. I don’t know if you’re aware or if you’ve ever been part of one, but it creates a zero pressure environment. So where there’s air leak, you can feel the wind blowing through. And there was literally air coming in through the floorboards of my upstairs, I felt like I lived in a cheese grater.
Unknown Speaker 31:21
But he said that can be solved by insulating the roof of the porch.
Unknown Speaker 31:26
There were also air leaks along all the baseboards throughout the house, which he said clear caulk would solve. So I did that. And he also said that, in lieu of glazing the windows, I could simply use clear caulk around the edges. Because I don’t really know how to do that. Didn’t have the time to do it before this hearing. So I did that as well.
Unknown Speaker 31:52
Let’s see.
Unknown Speaker 31:53
That covered that. One of the facts that the assessor shared with me, and this is a unique program efficiency works. I’m not sure how familiar you are with it. But it’s it’s quite unique nationwide. They harness the funds of Excel, and the oversight of government to help people make their homes more efficient and often help financially to make those improvements windows are not qualifiable under that program. So he didn’t even talk to me about replacing the windows. He shared the fact that 80% of heat loss is due to air movement.
Unknown Speaker 32:32
storm windows are as a rule not airtight, right, we don’t want to trap moisture in there.
Unknown Speaker 32:39
I have endo Windows storm windows on my house right now.
Unknown Speaker 32:44
I installed them three weeks ago.
Unknown Speaker 32:48
I haven’t seen any significant increase in the temperature. But we’ve only hit a low one time and it was only for one night. So it’s really not a fair sample.
Unknown Speaker 32:58
I’m hopeful that it’ll really stem like kind of stopped the bleeding over the winter.
Unknown Speaker 33:05
Those were over $9,000. So that was my entire down payment for Windows and my entire savings plus some credit, just if we’re talking about financial hardship.
Unknown Speaker 33:18
But even if I did puts it like even if I did correct the operation ability of the windows and put storm windows on the inside or outside my windows or a police system. And I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, but there’s a hole drilled in the frame and ropes and air pours in through that during the blower test I saw air pouring in. So I’d also have to change the mechanism of my windows
Unknown Speaker 33:47
and do away with original material in order and alter original material in order to make them into the peg ones right.
Unknown Speaker 33:56
That are not airtight but they’re almost airtight. They’re as close as you can get.
Unknown Speaker 34:03
It’s also worth noting that my interior storms are also not airtight.
Unknown Speaker 34:08
They’re tight, but they’re not airtight. They don’t stop airflow.
Unknown Speaker 34:13
So because I’m well below 80% Ami for Boulder County efficiency works actually offered to pay for all installation costs. They offered to pay for about $9,000 worth of installation.
Unknown Speaker 34:25
I have some some red tape to get through with Excel before I can do that. But I’m hopeful that that also will increase the efficiency of my home.
Unknown Speaker 34:37
I think that it’s worth noting that the $43,000 windows would be financed, but my mortgage company is rather strict about what the let me finance on a home improvement loan.
Unknown Speaker 34:49
And Windows qualify but like things like in DOS did not qualify for that kind of work.
Unknown Speaker 34:59
But that’s not
Unknown Speaker 35:00
All across all mortgage companies, I imagine it’s just mine, I spent a long time on the phone with them trying to get them to
Unknown Speaker 35:07
finance that so I didn’t have to deplete my savings.
Unknown Speaker 35:11
So
Unknown Speaker 35:13
I think
Unknown Speaker 35:15
I would say that I didn’t expect anyone to reconsider the certificate of appropriateness with any seriousness, I think you’ll made your positions pretty clear on that in the beginning, I appreciate the recap. But it’s really, I didn’t have any hope for that. I would say though, that
Unknown Speaker 35:32
even if you don’t have the energy assessment in hand, I think I’ve laid out pretty clearly why it’s a financial hardship, you’re around having air going in and out of my home, decreasing the inefficiency, the efficient efficiency works assessor actually noted that every 1.1 hours, all the air that’s in my house ends up outside.
Unknown Speaker 35:53
So I’m reheating my home every 1.1 hours or recalling my home every 1.1 hours, which is hundreds of percentage points below the acceptable range.
Unknown Speaker 36:06
So I’ve made some improvements that I hope will get us through the winter.
Unknown Speaker 36:11
This past week, when it got to nine degrees, we got a little bit below 50. And I felt like that was an improvement. Luckily, my children were with their dad that weekend. So we kind of lucked out.
Unknown Speaker 36:22
But
Unknown Speaker 36:24
I think
Unknown Speaker 36:26
what I would really like to see happen one is for
Unknown Speaker 36:31
for this commission and and maybe the city of Longmont to realize that maybe I know my finances a little bit better than others and, and I’m laying them out as clearly as I can literally my income is on the internet, just so you guys will possibly consider that this is a financial hardship for me.
Unknown Speaker 36:51
It’s, frankly embarrassing, but here we are.
Unknown Speaker 36:55
And also that
Unknown Speaker 37:00
I lost my train of thought
Unknown Speaker 37:02
I was so wrapped up in the embarrassment that I lost my train of thought so I guess I guess that’s it. Oh, and then hopefully after making all of these adjustments,
Unknown Speaker 37:12
I would like if, if the hardship is denied. I’d like to come back in the spring after I’ve had a winter in that home with the improvements that I have made, and reevaluate.
Unknown Speaker 37:25
And I kind of feel like Charlie Brown with the football. But I’m gonna keep trying, because logic tells me that it’s the windows. So I’m going to keep trying.
Unknown Speaker 37:38
So yeah, that’s all I got. Any questions for me? Thank you. I will say I’m very glad to hear that you got that blower door test. That was one of the things I was going to ask if you had done because that’s a pretty important piece of information. And you’re exactly right. That is often for bigger question than than many others. I’ll open it up to questions from other commissioners, if anybody has any.
Unknown Speaker 38:09
Commissioner Jacoby has a quick question Did you have the blower door test before after you had the interior storms placed on the floor because the interior storms cover those openings for the police in my house anyway, I believe they don’t, they don’t latch on my windows are one inch, a little bit less than one inch and a little bit less than half an inch depending on which floor you’re on because the windows are slightly different. And the sill of the window is about an inch wide. And you stick it in and then on the outside of that trim is the pulley system. So because the because the steps are small, and on my particular trim, the pulleys are on the outside.
Unknown Speaker 38:54
But no, I didn’t have them in when they did the blower test. So I have actually no idea how effective they truly are. Which is why I’m
Unknown Speaker 39:03
saying I might like to come back in spring if you if you deny hardship.
Unknown Speaker 39:12
Other questions?
Unknown Speaker 39:14
I do have a couple.
Unknown Speaker 39:18
So I just wanted to recap that you had you’d insulated the attic right? Yeah. And the upper floor walls are framed right there are wood frame walls. Yeah, wood frame walls, and they’ve been insulated. The you know, as far as I can see when I when I have cut into it, there is insulation in there. It’s minimal. It’s very minimal and it’s very deteriorated. they deemed the attic insulation not sufficient.
Unknown Speaker 39:44
So I had an impression that that might be the case because I kind of did what I could afford at the time.
Unknown Speaker 39:52
But they said it should be deeper. And they also said that they should they would like to come up on the joists. I think that’s what they said.
Unknown Speaker 40:00
come up like where the wall comes up the sides with insulation. And that’s part of what efficiency works. We’ll cover right. If they can cover insulating the upper walls that will be a big deal.
Unknown Speaker 40:12
The the lower floor walls are brick and I assume they’re basically like an eight inches of brick and just lath and plaster. Do you know what there’s lath and plaster on the interior walls? I’ve never attempted to drill into an exterior wall. No, no. Yes, yes. Yeah, no, there’s lath and plaster on top of it. So there’s brick and lath and plaster, right. So you know, one of the things about that lower wall, so to basically, if you’ve done a little insulation, you’re familiar with the R value, and talk to a lot of experts about it. Bigger is better, right? That’s why they want more in your attic. Normally, today, you’d put 50 An R 50 in an attic, something like that. So it’s a big number.
Unknown Speaker 40:58
A brick wall with lath and plaster is an AR three.
Unknown Speaker 41:03
Okay.
Unknown Speaker 41:04
The, which is basically a window.
Unknown Speaker 41:08
I mean, it’s it’s almost a window. So those brick walls are our, the it might not show up the same way on infrared camera. But it’s just math, there’s a lot of heat transfer through the wall, it works a little differently, because it has a thermal mass, and it’ll absorb a little, you know, heat during the day, and so on. But basically those those lower walls are a problem. And if your upper walls are not really well insulated, then it’s basically the same thing, right? You’re losing, you’re losing a ton of heat through those walls through all of that surface area. So if you can get the brick is difficult, obviously, because
Unknown Speaker 41:52
yeah, they have ways of doing it, though they drill into the outside, and then they Yeah, but that’s only works if you have a cavity so so if you can get them if they’re if you have a cavity there, you could you can fill that cavity that would work for the upper floor walls. Yeah, they didn’t they they wanted to go from the inside upstairs. And from the outside downstairs, I got a couple of bids. The problem is that efficiency works didn’t cite any issues with that. So they didn’t recommend it. And they didn’t offer to pay for it. So the guy spent like three hours at my house. And we talked about all sorts of things. And we barely even talked about the windows, because I told him it was a non starter when he walked in. But he didn’t. I asked specifically about the walls. And I know the math is that the math makes sense.
Unknown Speaker 42:42
Unfortunately, they’re not going to cover it because they didn’t find anything wrong, because I guess their tools didn’t pick up anything wrong there. So and like I said, I spent all my money on Windows so
Unknown Speaker 42:55
well, I think it would be worth
Unknown Speaker 42:58
staying, finding if you can, finding other ways of of potentially treating those upper floor walls or getting somebody to take another look at it or finding a way to to see if that insulation can’t be improved, because that would be a pretty big deal.
Unknown Speaker 43:17
I know there was a lot of conversation at the council hearing about the the HVAC system you put in and how efficient it was, and that sort of thing. Do you? Do you know what kind of efficiency that system has? Like if it’s a 80% efficiency or 90 or 96? Or whatever? Do you have any idea what that? I don’t I don’t know that figure off the top of my head. I do know that I installed it two years ago, brand new two and a half years ago brand new to two units, furnace and AC up and furnace and AC down.
Unknown Speaker 43:49
I do know that Yeah. I have some concerns about whether whoever did that for you sighs that correctly, given the temperature,
Unknown Speaker 44:00
low temperatures that you’re seeing, you know, because they should have account basically accounted for the fact that the walls are very low insulation value, right, and that you would get a lot of heat. But yeah, we had long discussions about that. Especially because it was kind of a puzzle because we were trying to find a place for it because I didn’t want to involve the historical engineer to like break through the two stories. So we definitely talked at length about that. I don’t think that any a track system could compete with air leakage through windows though and baseboards and floorboards. I don’t I don’t think it can compete.
Unknown Speaker 44:38
And if it could compete,
Unknown Speaker 44:41
it would still cost a lot of money.
Unknown Speaker 44:44
The efficiency of that system makes some difference but you’re correct and the air leakage is a big thing. So you did mention though that it’s not ideal that the HX system is in the attic. And that insulating the ATREX system from the attic down was going to be part of what they were going to do
Unknown Speaker 45:00
hopper and insulation. So your your the furnaces are in the attic, one furnace in the attic and one furnace above my kitchen. There’s no other space. So do those.
Unknown Speaker 45:12
Apologies for the weeds, but it helps. I think I’m trying to help a little bit too. So. So the house previously had like a baseboard system, right? Yes. So a boiler system, right. And so one of the things about these old homes is that what those systems did is it created a little heat curtain
Unknown Speaker 45:33
up against the outside wall that then helped prevent the heat transfer through the house to the outside. So when you change to an HVAC system that compromises that, that effect
Unknown Speaker 45:49
does do the the
Unknown Speaker 45:54
the grills essentially for where the heat comes out, where does the heat come out? Did they run it out to the windows in the floor? Or is it just come out like a sidewall? It’s in the ceiling, the vents are all in the ceiling. Okay, so you’re losing a little bit of of the efficiency of the old home in the way that system operates. Older system that would have actually prevented some So yeah, that does create a slightly more challenging condition. Yeah, new system. I think my my, my one thing was I wanted AC. And I thought, why am I going to have baseboard heaters and H back for AC?
Unknown Speaker 46:34
And so we put in heaters because we thought they’d be more efficient, also safer because they get hot, and my kids are small. Okay, well, I appreciate the time.
Unknown Speaker 46:45
Any other questions? Nope. So thank you.
Unknown Speaker 46:51
So I will go ahead then and open up the public hearing. If there’s anyone who would like to speak on this matter, you can approach the podium, go ahead and say your name and address and
Unknown Speaker 47:04
you get three minutes. Is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak? No. Okay. All right. Well, thank you. I will go ahead and close the public hearing, and then open it up for discussion with the commissioners.
Unknown Speaker 47:24
Okay, all right, well, then what I’m gonna do is I’m going to suggest that we at least at the moment, consider the certificate of appropriateness. Again, as a reminder, the hardship component is not really a factor in that. So
Unknown Speaker 47:42
in the absence of new information,
Unknown Speaker 47:46
I’d entertain a motion about
Unknown Speaker 47:48
whether to approve or deny the certificate of appropriateness.
Unknown Speaker 47:59
Commissioner guy, I would move to deny the application, that certificate of appropriateness.
Unknown Speaker 48:07
Okay, so that is moved by Commissioner guy and seconded by Commissioner Norton. Is there any discussion on the certificate of appropriateness?
Unknown Speaker 48:19
Okay, seeing none, I’ll call for a vote on that. All those in favor of the motion to deny please say aye. Aye. Any of those opposed?
Unknown Speaker 48:28
Okay, so, we have Commissioner Barner and Commissioner Fenster opposed.
Unknown Speaker 48:35
Okay, so now we’re on to the
Unknown Speaker 48:41
certificate of hardship. So like to see if there’s any commissioner discussion on that.
Unknown Speaker 48:56
Commissioner Barr,
Unknown Speaker 48:58
I
Unknown Speaker 49:00
was read through the staff report, and, frankly, hoping for more information.
Unknown Speaker 49:09
Understand the comments made by
Unknown Speaker 49:13
applicants applicant. But
Unknown Speaker 49:16
the key to voting for Certificate of hardship is reviewing financial information. And I’m not I’m not comfortable with just a verbal presentation on what energy audit said or some other things. So I would either
Unknown Speaker 49:35
I don’t know if there’s a way to get a copy of that and defer any action now until we actually get to see that and make, see whether that’s
Unknown Speaker 49:46
valid as far as hardship is concerned. And secondly, whether that the applicant is willing to submit financial information to us, if they’re not willing to submit it to the staff. This is an open hearing they submitted here.
Unknown Speaker 50:00
I submitted as additional information. So without that information, I don’t, I don’t see how I, you know, how I’m supposed to consider hardship actually. So I don’t, I’m uncomfortable voting for it at this time, and would hope that there’s a way to, we can get the information and if they can’t get if that information can’t be made available to the commission, and
Unknown Speaker 50:26
I wouldn’t be able to vote for it, because it wouldn’t have enough information.
Unknown Speaker 50:32
Thank you, Commissioner Jacoby.
Unknown Speaker 50:36
And I contrasting view.
Unknown Speaker 50:39
If the applicant won the lottery tomorrow,
Unknown Speaker 50:44
I still don’t see.
Unknown Speaker 50:48
approving this on the basis of financial hardship when we have data that shows interior storm windows work, as well, at a quarter to half the cost. So if we’re looking at cost and financial hardship there, I don’t think there’s an argument for double pane windows, I think you could argue that money would be necessary for better insulation, better caulking and sealing the house because the house clearly has multiple problems. And I hope Yeah, with that $9,000 grant or and getting some of that insulation put in there that you can get a lot of this taken care of it would be interesting to see how if you can get that insulation put in in time for the cold season between that and the interior storms, how things go.
Unknown Speaker 51:38
But, again, even if if if you won the lottery tomorrow, it still makes more financial sense for the similar outcome to have interior storm windows, which meets the criteria that we have to use whether to approve or deny replacement of Windows.
Unknown Speaker 52:00
Thank you. Other commissioners comments are?
Unknown Speaker 52:04
No.
Unknown Speaker 52:08
Yeah, I’d like to weigh in, I tend to agree with Commissioner Jacoby, you know, from a from a financial standpoint, it’s hard to see economic burden when we can say that the storms are going to
Unknown Speaker 52:25
be less expensive. So there’s dollars to be spent.
Unknown Speaker 52:31
In installation and other improvements.
Unknown Speaker 52:37
Basically, you know, if you came in if the applicant, if you’d come in here in July and said I want to put historic storm windows on my house, and we had a decent detail would be it would have been done would have very likely been approved.
Unknown Speaker 52:53
And you’d have storm windows. That’s That’s what that’s the criteria that were given to follow. We don’t have as a commission, a
Unknown Speaker 53:03
all of our directives, all of our standards, everything that we’re supposed to hold ourselves to say that the windows if they’re in decent condition, and they are they certainly are in decent enough condition, given the measurements that were being asked to follow that storm windows are the appropriate solution.
Unknown Speaker 53:26
And we have data that say they perform maybe not exactly as well, but really, really close.
Unknown Speaker 53:34
There are and we know that they cost less so that you have money to spend on other things.
Unknown Speaker 53:42
I actually had because we didn’t talk about this, but I put it out there actually talked to a
Unknown Speaker 53:51
there’s a restoration specialist or carpenter that is doing the work on the Callahan house, and we can provide you that information if you like but it’s Empire carpentry.
Unknown Speaker 54:01
And they’re actually the fifth one down on the State Historic Preservation offices list of contractors there in Fort Collins, they could provide a quote on historic window rep repair in two to three weeks. So they’re, they’re they’re potentially backed up a little bit in their work, but they’re scheduling work right now. They’re highly, highly competent, doing work in Longmont and doing work for other municipalities. So it’s like this is where this needs to go with with a with a historic home with a landmark tome. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 54:39
And so, I don’t find that there is any other hardship because it could be reasonably maintained and there is there are reasonable means of saving the property. So there are paths and
Unknown Speaker 54:57
so
Unknown Speaker 54:59
on
Unknown Speaker 55:09
Well, yeah, take a job with mine.
Unknown Speaker 55:13
No, actually, well, I this is maybe a little bit inappropriate and I’m happy to talk to you afterwards. But they would actually take a small job he specifically mentioned that even a small job would be great because they like small jobs to fill in between the big jobs. So I would encourage you to very at the very least have the conversation. There’s really no loss in having the conversation.
Unknown Speaker 55:35
So
Unknown Speaker 55:37
I just can’t see a reason to support that certificate at this time myself
Unknown Speaker 55:46
if there any other comments from commissioners and if not, I’d entertain a motion
Unknown Speaker 55:57
Okay, I’m gonna go with Commissioner Jacoby landed first here.
Unknown Speaker 56:04
I’m sorry, Fisher guy.
Unknown Speaker 56:06
I would move to deny that certificate of hardship.
Unknown Speaker 56:12
I’ll second.
Unknown Speaker 56:13
Okay. We have a motion to deny the certificate of hardship from Commissioner guy who and Secretary by Commissioner Norton. Any further discussion on the matter?
Unknown Speaker 56:26
Okay, yeah, so I know you usually call for the
Unknown Speaker 56:31
eyes and yeas, but I just want to let you know that I plan to abstain. So if you could call for that, too. Okay. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 56:40
Okay, all those in favor of the motion to deny certificate of hardship, please say aye. Aye. All those opposed? And abstentions.
Unknown Speaker 56:50
Okay, the record would show that
Unknown Speaker 56:53
Commissioner Barner abstained, and the rest of the commissioners voted to deny.
Unknown Speaker 57:35
Mr. Chairman, if do you have the appeal process language concerning the denial for the applicant?
Unknown Speaker 57:44
Not talking about the code language, the 30 day appeal period to file an appeal with city council. Okay, I don’t have that in front of me. Now. Let me pull up one second, just we can read it for the record.
Unknown Speaker 58:18
30 days right.
Unknown Speaker 58:27
Apologies. I’m still trying to find it. Oh, seven days.
Unknown Speaker 58:32
Okay. And so just for the benefit of the record and for the applicants under code provision 2.56220 c one, a party aggrieved by a final decision, the Commission, which the denial the certificate of appropriateness and certificate of hardship do constitute final decision, the Commission may be appealed to the city council. appeals to the city council shall be filed in writing with the city clerk with a copy to the liaison to the HPC, which is Miss Haywood Apperson within seven days from the date of the Commission’s decision, which is today meaning that the appeal period expires close of business on November 9.
Unknown Speaker 59:12
All right.
Unknown Speaker 59:13
Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 59:18
Okay, we’ll we’ll move on to new business, which is Commissioner interviews for the 2024.
Unknown Speaker 59:27
Yes. So,
Unknown Speaker 59:29
essentially, we’ve had we had one applicant for the commission and that would be Commissioner Fenster, who is currently an alternate applying for a regular position.
Unknown Speaker 59:42
Under advice for so the clerk has indicated that we do not need to go through a formal interview process if it’s a current member, whether it be alternate or regular, who is applying for a position so
Unknown Speaker 59:56
with that, I will let you discuss it but as
Unknown Speaker 1:00:00
Otherwise, we have been advised by the clerk that we can accept Mr. Fenster as a regular member, if that is your choice. Okay. So I guess that’s essentially Does any commissioner other than Mr. Fenster have a objection to Mr. Fenster, continuing on this commission? Put your own spot?
Unknown Speaker 1:00:24
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:26
All right. Okay, seeing none.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:30
Welcome to the Commission permanently.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:34
or semi permanent permanently as a guest.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:38
Thank you, I feel honored.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:43
Okay, I one more.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:48
I did my credentials in a rather formal format. And I don’t know whether they were ever provided to the commission itself.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:01
Those were not provided at this point. So I would need to get those from the clerk. Like, again, we were advised that we did not need to go through the formal application process or the formal interview process. But if anyone is interested in receiving those credentials, I’m happy to obtain them from the clerk and I will share them. Yeah, I would feel more comfortable if they were shared. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:25
I can do that.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:27
Fair enough. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:31
Okay. It does not appear that we have any prior business to discuss. So from here we are down to comments from HBC commissioners, do any commissioners have something to like, share with us Commissioner Jacoby?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:45
Yes, at the last meeting, Councilman Rodriguez mentioned that city council asked the historic preservation commission to make a recommendation on the historic Eastside neighborhood conservation overlay application. He mentioned that at the very end of the meeting, it’s not on the agenda here. But to start the discussion, I would like to move that we recommend City Council direct planning to pursue the proposed conservation overlay with the two waivers that the historic Eastside neighborhood is requesting, which are namely waiving the planning fee, which we discussed and approved as a group at the last meeting and waiving the requirement to notify those outside the conservation overlays propose borders, which is something that I believe is already planning is able to do but going ahead with that recommendation. So there’s, it’s there’s not a lot new there. But again, I think we should have a formal motion and present that so we can tell city council that yes, we do. Go ahead with we agree with going ahead with the conservation overlay.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:00
So I make that motion.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:03
Second.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:04
Okay. I’ve got a motion in a second on the floor discussion, but I want to Yeah, so is this something that really ought to, again,
Unknown Speaker 1:03:14
is not appropriate for this point of the meeting and ought to be on an agenda? Or are you just going to comment on what we’re we are with status? I think that would be best if it was actually published on a application, and we could give you all the background.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:32
Yeah. So again, well, I think what I like, just procedurally like to this, this point of the meeting is more about bringing things to attention, right? But then we ought to, rather than to just make a motion and in this like to, like, make sure we have it on the agenda, we get a staff report for it. We have a discussion, there can be a public hearing, there could be notification, we’ve had a few folks in here saying oh, you know, you, you handled material that wasn’t published and had a discussion and we would have liked to come in and provide public comment. So I think there is some duty as even though it’s,
Unknown Speaker 1:04:11
it’s relatively sparse, typically write that to publish that and have a little quick discussion about it. If that’s fair. I keep pushing back, but so.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:25
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:32
Good. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:34
So I would like to withdraw the motion, I would request that it’d be placed on the agenda for the next meeting.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:42
To be honest, I feel like even a geologist would be frustrated with the timeframes that we work under sometimes.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:49
And when would be the appropriate time to make a motion then, unless all motions are you saying, again, I’m not
Unknown Speaker 1:04:57
very good with these rules. The best
Unknown Speaker 1:05:00
Do you make motions with regards to issues that are already on the agenda? Correct? Right, right. So we’re acting on agenda items. And if you want to put something on next month’s agenda to talk about, then this is the appropriate time to do that. Okay. And then we put it on the agenda, it’s published, everyone out there who looks at HPC knows that it’s going to be a little discussion about it, it might take three minutes, but there’s at least an opportunity for public to come in and comment on it and the staff to be prepared to answer the question and so on and so forth. Sounds good. Okay. Great. Thank you. Okay, so I do want to withdraw the motion for now. All right. Thank you. So we will get that on that.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:43
Point. Okay, thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:46
Can we Commissioner Fenster, can I get the second for the withdrawal? Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:52
So can we get this item on the agenda for the December meeting? And a little trick, if the commission agrees, I guess, and maybe that should be the motion to put it on a future agenda. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:06
out so
Unknown Speaker 1:06:09
I’ll find you here. I’m gonna go ahead and beat a dead horse because I know this is not the first time that you have brought this up. And I feel like we have requested that this be on an agenda. So I will make the motion that
Unknown Speaker 1:06:25
the conservation easement overlay goes on the agenda for the December meeting.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:33
All right.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:34
So we have a motion to add an item to the next month’s meeting for the concert. raishin overlay
Unknown Speaker 1:06:41
motion made by Commissioner Norton and seconded by Commissioner Barner. All those, let’s say any further discussion? Nope. Okay. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? None. Okay. So we’ll get that on the agenda. I think I said it wrong. Just do whatever.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:07
Okay, let’s see. I have got a commissioner guy you here with comments.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:14
I actually
Unknown Speaker 1:07:16
happen to very unfortunately, notice that the house at third and Collier gone. The whole property is gone. And it’s a little house, it was probably 1910s 1920s. And just the whole thing’s gone and wondered, perhaps why we didn’t see a demolition.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:40
Hearing about that.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:43
We’ll need to look into that because I did not see. I don’t recall receiving seen any requests for that. Unless you’re referring to the garage because I know. Oh, the whole the whole thing of levels.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:02
Yeah, interesting. Okay. Yeah, it was there. And then it was gone.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:08
It was gone. And now the whole, the whole property has been leveled. So all the trees were taken down, the house is gone, everything is gone. Sounds like a bunch of us are going to have a field day, especially if the trees were taken down. Yes. Other probably six to 10 very mature trees that were taken.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:28
They probably weren’t super healthy. They were gonna think they were cottonwoods. But ya know, at the house, that everything is gone.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:38
Any questions? Yes. That’s why I bring it up.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:44
Because we’re supposed to. I do mean to be naive, frankly. But does it raise any questions as to whether there are historical preservation
Unknown Speaker 1:08:57
procedures in place that amount to laws and regulations that might have been violated in this case? And if not, why not?
Unknown Speaker 1:09:11
Well, when demolition permit goes through on a property that is more than 50 years old or within the original square mile of Longmont. It is supposed to come to the preservation staff for their evaluation, and then if they deem it so they are supposed to bring it to us for review and comment, and I assume that did not happen did not happen.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:38
So what’s missing?
Unknown Speaker 1:09:40
That’s an excellent question. We’ll need to do some investigation on this because it’s not ringing any bells, as far as I don’t recall doing any sort of review of any sort. I’m looking at the looking at the Google Street View on this right now. And I do not
Unknown Speaker 1:10:00
Recall
Unknown Speaker 1:10:02
reviewing anything for that, that definitely would have come up to the commission. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:08
Again, I’m trying to figure out what’s missing. Was the property not properly registered was a regulation violated doesn’t matter if it was registered or not, it’s within the original mile of Longmont and it’s more than 50 years old. Well, next, is there a reason why the property owner might not have known, reasonably might not have known? It doesn’t matter, the permitting department should have forwarded it to the preservation. Should we be selling something to the permitting department? I think that’s the I think that’s the point that Commissioner guy is making to alert staff too quick to find out.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:50
Well, we’ll take we’ll look into this because that’s coming sadly, it’s it’s gone too late. It’s
Unknown Speaker 1:10:58
completely gone. Like, yeah, down to complete dirt. So
Unknown Speaker 1:11:06
there is absolutely nothing left. So, but yeah, pretty owner not have known is there. I mean, again, it’s not.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:16
It’s not up to the property owner to know that when they go for a permit. The permanent department is supposed to do their job, which is to let
Unknown Speaker 1:11:25
the planning department now.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:28
I’m not going Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:31
I mean, something did not happen, obviously. Yeah. So it’d be good to find out what it is. And if there’s anything we can do to not have that happen again, that’d be great. What for example, could we do?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:46
Something has to happen within the city’s
Unknown Speaker 1:11:50
procedures? I would guess. As you know, we’ve spent quite a bit of time Yes.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:57
My frustration.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:00
So I’m just I’m looking right now to see if I can even find if a permit was pulled because that also is a problem could very well I’m thinking it very well could have happened without a permit. I just want to confirm the address. You said southwest corner of third and Collier. Yep. Okay. 251. Call your.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:34
Penalties conversationally.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:36
Exactly as
Unknown Speaker 1:12:38
penalty is one $50.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:44
That’s why we need penalties for this sort of thing.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:48
Yes, Commissioner Jacoby penalties with teeth. I just wanted to comment that this isn’t the first time this has happened was two years ago, it happened on that 800 block of Emory. So if this has happened twice in two years, I think it’s two years.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:04
This is something we really have to think about the procedures involved. I am not finding a demolition permit for this property.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:16
I’m seeing sign permits. I’m seeing right of way work. That was issued in April, but I’m not seeing anything in our system
Unknown Speaker 1:13:33
that has anything to do with demolition or frankly, any work on this property.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:40
Well, you’re welcome.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:43
Yeah, but the next
Unknown Speaker 1:13:45
record that the chair recognize you there.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:51
All right, Commissioner Fenster.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:54
That may raise a question as to whether our criteria should say our regulations are complete so that a property owner would know or would have had to know
Unknown Speaker 1:14:10
whether if there was a violation here, it should be pursued.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:18
Just letting it go seems inappropriate.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:23
Any
Unknown Speaker 1:14:26
anybody it’s not the property owners requirement to know they hired a contractor who knows they have to pull a permit in which to demolish a property and they illegally did not do that.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:42
One would hope that there could be some recourse in their business licensing, that they did not follow the laws, but I don’t hold up high property.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:55
Again, but the property owner is not responsible at all. They
Unknown Speaker 1:15:00
hired a contractor that’s up to you the work and it’s the contractors job to pull a permit for the work that they perform. I’m having trouble believing that the property owner has no responsibility.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:16
It. We just found out about it. Maybe it
Unknown Speaker 1:15:19
does become a code issue. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:23
Yeah, we not discuss it right now. I’ll look into this and have a report at the next meeting. But again, as I’m looking through our permitting system, I’m not showing anything that was pulled for this property.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:41
Okay, well, fascinating. a who done it for next week or next month? All right. Any other Commissioner comments?
Unknown Speaker 1:15:52
No. All right. Thank you. We do not have our
Unknown Speaker 1:15:58
council liaison with us this evening. So that
Unknown Speaker 1:16:02
gets us to adjournment.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:07
Motion to adjourn by Commissioner Barnett and seconded by Commissioner Norton. All those in favor? Aye. We are adjourned. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, staff
Transcribed by https://otter.ai