Historic Preservation Board – July 2023
Speaker 1 0:22
Okay, we’ll go ahead and call the July 6. Meeting of the historic preservation commission to order. Can we have the roll, please? Commissioner Sibley Here. Commissioner Fenster. Chairman lane here. Commissioner Norton. Yeah. Commissioner Jacoby Here. Commissioner bioinert. Thank you. Thank you. We do have a quorum. So then we’ll move on to approval of the June 1, meeting minutes. Any other commissioners have any comments or corrections on those minutes? And if not, I’d entertain a motion. Got a motion to approve from Commissioner Fenster and a second from commissioners, Sibley, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? None. The minutes are approved. Report from the chair. I do not have anything tonight to report on so we’ll just move on to communications from HBC staff liaison.
Speaker 2 1:39
I don’t have too many updates. Aside from the fact that we have been in conversations with our general planning consultant and their historic preservation staff about getting work going on a survey plan for the city of Longmont so that the wheels are turning on that we just are working on some administrative and scoping processes with those. We did receive. I think I may have mentioned this in the last meeting, we have a proposal from CalMac Williams on the tower of compassion cultural resources survey so we can set the framework for getting that landmarked and need to do some administrative follow up on that and get some purchasing done. And good thing sign there. So aside from that, I don’t really have any additional comments or things items to report Glenn.
Speaker 3 2:40
I expected the chair to ask me about the HPC. Demolition was going to. And so I’m prepared. I just got some changes from our city attorney’s, so it doesn’t look like anything real substantial. So I’m gonna go through that in the next couple of days. I’m meeting with them on Tuesday. So I hope to have them planned to have them before you at your August meeting, and then we’ll go ahead and move it right into City Council’s process. So hopefully, August, September, in that timeframe. Hopefully we can get that. That it out with counsel. Okay,
Speaker 1 3:21
great. Yeah, that’s good news. Thank you. Any Commissioner questions for staff? No. Okay. Thank you. So, next we have public invited to be heard anybody in the audience who is not here for an agenda item. Everybody hears for something on the agenda. So we’ll go ahead and close the public invited to be heard and move on to our first action item, which is a public hearing for a certificate of appropriateness for window replacement at 545 Collier staff, do you have a report for us?
Speaker 2 4:05
I do. Thank you so much, Chair and members of the commission. So we have a window request and bear with me for a moment let me get my sentences back in order. We have a request for window replacement at 545 Colliers Street. This property is at the south west corner of Collier and Sixth Avenue and so we have a request to replace all the windows in the home. This particular property is known as the Bennis Rowan house, and it was designated in 1985. So the applicant has indicated that they’re seeking to replace the windows because the existing windows are inoperable. They’ve got some safety concerns regarding loose glass. Very big concerns regarding efficiency. This particular winter was I think, we know pretty rough and at one point She’s indicate she indicated it was down to 42 degrees and inside the house. The other reason siding was the rationale as a rationale for replacement was there’s limited availability of contractors who do this restoration work. So the proposed replacement windows are from the Marvin Windows Ultimate wood line. They are solid wood they are made of pine so soft wood double paned and would match the existing whenever one style. The applicant does propose to incorporate the original windows into a future Greenhouse on the property. So as part of as part of the application and review process, I did request that photographs be provided of all the windows in the house. So the next few slides do show the existing Windows you’ll see they are one over one. sash windows have varying sizes throughout the home.
Speaker 2 6:06
And these are included in my report as well. So just going through the criteria for for review, there are four criteria that we have to consider when evaluating a certificate of appropriateness. And the first one is whether or not the work meets all applicable design guidelines approved by council given that this is not a locally designated district, but just a rather a legally designated property. We don’t have those standards or those guidelines. So this criteria does not apply. The second would be whether the proposed work preserves, enhances or restores and does not damage or destroy the exterior architectural features of the property. So as a general rule, replacement of original wood windows with modern replacements is discouraged for historic properties, given the importance of windows to the integrity of architectural features. The windows, the photos, the existing Windows provided by the applicant don’t seem to depict windows that are beyond repair, and they seem to be salvageable. We do recognize the difficulties that historic property owners have been having finding qualified contractors for this type of work. And we do understand also that this work is oftentimes beyond the ability of a lot of homeowners to do themselves. A big issue that was cited was lead times. And so the applicant did provide documentation from their contractor stating that they were in fact available in the fall of this year to begin the work. And that lead times from their storm storm window manufacturer were along the lines of 22 weeks. This doesn’t seem out of the realm of reasonable for this type of work in these types of contractors given that it is a pretty specialty field. So we don’t, we’re not of the opinion that the condition is severe enough to warrant wholesale replacement. And we also aren’t convinced that the lead times are so long as to present a really severe hardship for the property owner. They may disagree with me, but this is this is my professional opinion on this. The third criteria that we have to evaluate is whether or not the work adversely affects the special character of the landmark. And so the windows would match this one over one style of existing windows and they are wood rather than composite aluminum or vinyl. But we’ve had this discussion with this commission. Many times, Windows original windows are a really important feature of historic homes and should be preserved whenever possible. So we’re not sad, we’re not satisfied, we’re not of the opinion that this criteria has been satisfied either. The fourth criteria would be whether the architectural style, arrangement texture materials would be compatible. The proposed replacements are the same style and have a similar material as the windows or be replaced however, they are modern replacements. So technically this criteria has been has been met in that they are similar in terms of the style and the materials. So in terms of staffs recommendation, your staff has has Commission has four four options you can either approve the applications proposed, you can approve the application with conditions including approving and part denying in part, you can defer action on the application based on the need for additional information or you can deny this application. So staff does recommend it I’ll have this application based on the fact that review criteria two and three have not been met. Specifically, also the windows are not sufficiently deteriorated to warrant replacement. We do recommend repair and installation of storm windows as an alternative to complete replacement. As noted, the applicants contractor does indicate that they have availability starting this fall, you know, staff does recognize that fall is seasonal, seasonal availability can can be very vague and fall does include anytime from September 21 to December 21. So that that is a concern, I do understand. But we just don’t feel that the lead times are sufficiently long as to be unreasonable. With that, I will open it up for questions. We do also have the applicant here to discuss their proposal as well.
Speaker 1 10:58
Thank you, before we open up for the applicant to any commissioners have a question for staff
Speaker 4 11:13
characterize the replacement as quote modern replacements. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 11:22
That means modern manufacturing techniques double paned windows, spring mechanism versus sash weights and ropes.
Speaker 3 11:38
Cash for barter. I’m trying to balance two different ideas. One is the common bear coming through the windows. And that temperature is very low in the wintertime. Along with it isn’t really necessary. They haven’t deteriorated enough. And so I’m trying to understand from the staffs perspective, what is how to how to, how are we supposed to consider when something is deteriorated enough? And and that’s that’s first part. And the second part is, is there the last application we had was very different because the recommendation the replacement was going to be not the word replacements. This is a wood replacement. So is it the feeling of the staff that there are no circumstances that that a full replacement would be vend would be vindicated? Or just how far along the deterioration line to something have to progress? sure that’s the case.
Speaker 2 12:49
So in the previous case, we did I did recommend approval based on the fact that the windows to be proposed for replacement were on the upper storey and I know we had some disagreement my my thoughts and based on the documentation I was provided in that case is that those upper storey windows weren’t necessarily original, they didn’t appear to have a sash rope and weight mechanism they seem to have a spring mechanism. So I was not of the opinion they were original in this case the applicant is seeking to replace all the windows in the house rather than just the upper storey. So, the visual impact will beast at street level. So that is a consideration. So I do have let me find the page. So in terms of this is a handout that Commissioner Lane chairperson Lane provided from the National Trust for Historic Preservation and it is basically about when do you repair and when do you replace. So if you go through this
Speaker 2 14:04
the determination is window a could be repaired, it is has loose a loose meeting rail, some missing glass that is that can be repaired, did a B which has missing glazing that glazing is a really big component of keeping Windows airtight. And the exterior photos I was provided it did appear that there was some glazing that was missing. And that needed to be replaced. And that is that’s a very important part of keeping Windows airtight. Speaking from personal experience on that one. So in terms of, you know, really have all of these windows that are shown on this on this document, the only one that was deemed replacement was absolutely needed. Um, so Windows D, it says replacement, likely, there were missing glass, but they’re also missing the frames. So there really wasn’t a lot to repair there. But really with the exception of an F and G down here, let’s use the right mouse that would be extremely helpful
Speaker 2 15:31
these are categorized as replacement is probably necessary, there are more on the border line just because the extensive nature of the repairs.
Unknown Speaker 15:43
Speaker 2 15:46
it’s takes it there are you know, it’s pretty amazing what can be restored in terms of weather tightness, there’s really good evidence that well, fitting storm windows can substantially increase the efficiency. You know, stopgap measures, there are various films and stuff if you’re if you need if you need a cost efficient thing, but ultimately, replacing replacing the windows can go far for for helping with some of the drafts. So ultimately, from my perspective, I’m more inclined to support replacement windows that are not historical or original to the home. Which it wasn’t clear that that was the case back in February, these are very clearly original to the home in this particular property, and therefore, you know, they aren’t in such substantial disrepair as to require us to require replacement.
Unknown Speaker 16:56
And Jacoby, you had a question?
Speaker 5 16:59
Yes. I know, when we talked about the last set of Windows, I gave you a name of someone who rehabbed windows, the city you said the city has a listing of some people who repair them? Do we still have that list? You know how many names are on that
Speaker 2 17:15
list. So the city does not maintain a list per se. My practice is to refer people to the History Colorado contractor page, since it is a more robust page and encompasses quite a few contractors. Ever pretty much everyone who you know we’ve encountered at history, college, saving places conferences are all on that list. The challenge is, you know, some of them are on in different parts of the state. Some of them only do commercial. And there are long lead times for quite a few of them. So
Speaker 5 17:49
yeah, I was trying to get a handle on how many people are actually available in the Longmont area.
Speaker 2 17:54
I don’t have a number and unfortunately, that’s really not something that’s easy to track to because they do come from other parts of the larger area.
Unknown Speaker 18:07
Did you have another comment?
Speaker 3 18:10
I think I think that I think Commissioner Jacoby’s question is an important one, because we have to deal in the in the world of reality. And if there are, I don’t know, how we can get a handle on on this. Because if there’s nobody available to do any of this work, then saying, Well, it’s a requirement that we have to have this work done isn’t a realistic requirement. And we’re basically saying that under no conditions, will we ever approve them, because you can never get them repaired because there is no one to do that work. Now, I’m not saying that’s the case. And in fact, I was a little disappointed in the application talked about the ability and the time requirements for getting the windows repaired or replaced. But there was nothing in the application about any work that’s been done or any evidence presented as to the any attempt that was made or what the reactions were from people who repair them. So again, I would have liked to have seen that would have helped my decision. But on the other hand, I also think the other part is what responsibility we have as people who are enforcing something, if what we’re enforcing is not a realistic possibility.
Speaker 2 19:35
So if you look at there’s attachment towards the end of the See, it’s before the cultural resources survey, and that is an email between the contractor who the applicant Gosh, I’m trying to find it in the package now. It’s kind of last
Unknown Speaker 19:54
Speaker 2 19:55
Thank you very much. 26 page 26 Yes, there is there is correspondence with heritage window restoration, LLC, President Greg Connor, that they are booking new work and out into the fall of 2023.
Speaker 3 20:12
Right? Well, I I’m aware of that. Yeah. So that’s what we know, we know that in the fall of 2023, they can do a full replacement. But no, that’s
Speaker 2 20:24
for the repair work. That’s for that’s for the repair.
Unknown Speaker 20:29
So similar timeframe.
Unknown Speaker 20:34
That is for the repair work with I’m sorry,
Speaker 3 20:37
I missed that. Well, I thought I’d read this. Where does it talk about repair work?
Speaker 1 20:45
So many is heritage window restoration. Yeah, they would be the supplier of storm windows,
Speaker 3 20:52
I understand. But the presentation that was been made is that the windows will be replaced by this company,
Unknown Speaker 21:00
that is not the company replacing them.
Unknown Speaker 21:02
Speaker 2 21:05
that is not the company that we will be replacing them, it would be a different company who deals in Marvin windows, who would be replacing them.
Speaker 3 21:18
Okay, because if you look on page 26, it says, it says from from the applicant, working with you, Jennifer, an application to replace my historic windows. Can you relay the lead time to me, and that’s what was responded to. So I don’t see anything here. Other than the fact that we’re restoration is in the name. So that the fall time is for replays is for restaurant is for repair.
Speaker 2 21:51
So signature windows and doors is the contractor who would be replacing the windows. And that was the quote, previous with the product information. The email exchange that particular with a heritage window restoration, they don’t do replacement, they do restoration and swarm windows.
Unknown Speaker 22:18
We don’t have any quote on that.
Speaker 2 22:20
So the reference is custom storm windows. If you’re doing window replacement, there would be no need for storm windows. So this was about the restoration and preservation with storm windows.
Speaker 3 22:38
So it’s your it’s your and your understanding is that this company would would do the replacement or good,
Speaker 1 22:46
I believe grim smart, I think we could get the applicant up here they could have an opportunity to explain and they could probably answer that question more clearly as well. If we, if we’re good. If there’s no more questions for staff, I’d like if, if you’d like your gonna have the floor. That’s okay.
Unknown Speaker 23:10
And there’s the microphone.
Speaker 6 23:11
Oh, cool. Is it gonna work? Cool. I’m Lizzie Wolf. I’m the applicant. Hi. So to clarify a few things. My understanding from the contractor who I contacted to put storm windows on my Windows not for repair this was simply to get another pane of glass there so that I can keep my house warm. As an alternative to replacing the windows, he told me that his project start date is in fall. And production of those windows is 22 weeks, bringing us most of the way through winter or into spring. So my kids and I would be living in that house through winter if they were to be repaired. And I have some other things to also answer your concern. I did some I did take some other measures on my own in order to air seal these windows for the last two winters. And I’ll go into that as well. I’m sorry, it wasn’t in the application. I I don’t think I’d quite knew what I was getting myself into when I filled out the application. So I’ve offered all that information now. I’m really poor at speaking in front of people. So I’m going to read if that’s cool with you guys. Okay, so it’s important to me that I note initially, that I have a passion for historic houses. This is not the first Victorian home that I’ve owned and restored. And it’s why I own one. I love historic homes I have a passion for it. Today however I’m here to present the facts of the condition of the home that I care for so much. We all know I want to replace my windows with double pane all wood windows. She made that extremely clear with that wonderful presentation. If I had known that you were gonna put the pin Here’s on the presentation, I might have cleaned my house first. But I’m going I plan on replacing them with identical shapes, measurements and pain styles. So fix the diff measures that I’ve taken to insulate my home in the winter include caulking the gaps in the windows to stop the air coming in. But they’re not operational anymore because they had to be coughed because there was air leaking in through my windows. But almost every one of my Windows required caulk, I did that it was mostly effective. So in addition to that, I seal the interior with plastic coating to remove drafts. And many of those windows, the plastic like below down, there was definitely air coming in. In addition to that, I did professional weather proofing of the front and back doors which are original. Well, the front door is original, the addition is from the 40s, I think so the back door doesn’t really count as Victorian or historic. And then I did spray foam insulation in my crawlspace to ensure that the heat was not coming out through my floor and through the foundation. These types of foundations are rocks put together. And so there’s lots of gaps. You can see daylight through them when you’re in my cellar. Well not anymore. And professional operational window repairs done by Heritage Restoration. That’s how I got this contact. I’ve actually already used him for some operational some of the larger operational repairs on my Windows including broken glass, missing locks. I didn’t have him reseal all of them and go through a full restoration because it wasn’t financially feasible for me at the time. But I did have him address the larger issues that were more pressing. And then short term measures that I’ve taken to live in my home in the winter with my children, not bring my children downstairs unless necessary. And I really want that to sink in. My kids are five and three. And they don’t come downstairs in the morning. They cannot come downstairs without socks and shoes and coats. There was a point in February, where it reached below 43 degrees 43 was an average. I ran space heaters 24 hours a day for weeks at a time. Huge energy waste, huge expense, and it didn’t even work. I ran my brand new energy efficient furnaces, I have two of them one upstairs one downstairs at full capacity almost 24 hours a day. With these measures deployed all at once. For the last two winters. The interior of my home has often hit lows of 43 degrees, as noted, thank you very much. And even saw below 40 degree temperatures in the really tough cold parts of winter. In the month of February. For two years in a row, my energy bill is exceeded $400 I have records of my energy bills if anyone wants them. I have them all printed out. Proving obviously these spikes in cost. Okay, if no one’s interested in those, and I understand because it’s boring. There are some additional Oh, I forgot to pick up Nope, there it is. I found it. So because of the energy bill situation, I wanted to go a little bit into the realistic side of a $400 energy bill. For me personally, I’m a single mom of two small kids. We are a single income household. And so it is not my desire to lay out my finances to be recorded in city hall but I will I make $4,980 a month. My mortgage is 2002 $1,416 daycare for my children is 1350 Those are my largest expenses for everything else. Food, clothes, bills, gas insurance, incidentals, any kind of crisis that may happen that leaves me $1,214 In the month of February for two years in a row 30% of my disposable income went to energy. If you do choose to take these balance these balance sheets, you’ll see that I struggled to pay them. There were a couple of months where I was lapsed. I have no shame in admitting that. Financing windows will add $75 a month to my mortgage I plan on taking out a loan for it. far preferable to the spikes to $400 a month in the cold seasons and similar heights when it’s hot and my AC is running and the cold air is coming out of my windows. Okay. And then I promise I’m almost on a Um, I’d like to note some of the modern updates that have been done to the home to give us some perspective on the home in general, the kitchen and bathroom addition about 250 square feet off the back of the house was added in the 40s as best I could find on the city of Longmont website, and it significantly changed the look of the house. We all agree that houses need bathrooms and kitchens. So seems reasonable to me. The garage was added on to the original outhouse which is not on the register, but I think it’s kind of cool. There’s a woman door and a man door and the woman door slightly smaller than the man door. I thought that was kind of cool. But they added a garage on it in a haphazard way. And now it’s unusable. It’s a structurally unsound structure sitting on the corner of my property. But that was approved or at least executed. I don’t know if it was approved. When I moved in and then so after I purchased the house, I replaced the electrical there was existing live knob and tube wiring everywhere in the house. And I don’t know if you know anything about this, but that’s incredibly dangerous. So we replaced it all that was $19,000 I put a new roof on the house that was $22,000 Another modern luxury. That is we all deemed necessary. But did do away with original material of the house. And I put an energy efficient H back to air conditioners, two furnaces, one on each level so as not to compromise the structure of the home.
Unknown Speaker 31:39
Speaker 6 31:43
Okay. We’ve already gone over the discrepancies in the report the 22 week lead time that’s for storm windows. I think that’s probably where the confusion came in. I don’t know how long it would take them to repair the windows I or Jennifer have not spoken to him about that. So we don’t know. But the start time to scope the project would be fall, which as you noted could just extend into December. What are your calendars? Just kidding. What some of the things that I would hope would sweeten the application a little bit that I’ve already offered to finance significantly more expensive windows for the sake of continuity. These are wood windows. They will not be removing any of the trim on the inside or the outside. That is additional labor but it was well worth the cost. And I’ve also offered to use the the existing sashes, to erect a greenhouse on the property I’ve always wanted to greenhouse anyway. And I think it would be a cool way to adaptively reuse as as stated in the ordinance that gives you guys your authority, the materials on the property. And also like put them on display because they are really cool. However inefficient they may be.
Unknown Speaker 33:07
Um, let’s see. I think there are two more points I would like to make in their short.
Speaker 6 33:16
I’ve already made this point but they are the center of my entire universe. My children live in this home. And it’s important that they are warm in the winter. I am a taxpaying citizen I have lived here for over over 13 years. And I’ve owned more than one historic home I love historic homes.
Speaker 6 33:40
When I bought this home, it was a poorly maintained office building. They did unspeakable things to the original materials in that house. I don’t even want to get into it. But I bought it because I saw its potential. And I transformed it from an office. And it had been that way since the 70s. and made it into a beautiful family home adding to the beauty and the historic culture of my neighborhood. I think I hope, I hope that this speaks about the respect that I have for the age of my home. And I really appreciate you guys earnestly listening to my side of the story. The story for me centers around my family and the livability of the home that I’ve purchased for us to live in and that I lovingly take care of. Yeah, and I guess I have some supporting facts, but I’m open to questions. I know I talked for a long time. I’m really sorry. I was following your script.
Speaker 1 34:39
No worries. Thank you, commissioners, questions for the applicant. Commissioner Fenster.
Speaker 4 34:49
I’m concerned with visual effects. Would you do that again? Yep, I’m concerned with visual was that if you were to do the replacement you’re proposing, would there be a significant visual difference?
Speaker 6 35:13
No, other than the fact that antique glass does have a very beautiful effect to it, and that cannot be replicated the wood, the size and width of the framing, it’s all custom to my specifications. And so other than the glass, it would look the same. I’d say that unless you’re on this commission, or you walked by my house every day, you might not notice. But that glass is beautiful, which is why I want to keep it on the property and do something with it.
Speaker 1 35:51
Piggybacking on that question, do you know if Marvins plan would be to remove the frame of the existing window or just to remove the sash and put this? So it’d be frame and sash would be removed? No. And so
Speaker 6 36:07
I’m nodding, because that’s what I do when people talk to me. Sorry. So
Speaker 1 36:11
the question is, really, does the frame in the replacement scenario with the frame also come out? Or would their new window in a frame sash and frame fit inside the frame opening
Speaker 6 36:25
their new window, the sash and the glass would fit inside the existing frame, all the trim work would be untouched, it wouldn’t even need to be removed.
Speaker 1 36:33
Right? But there is this is a subtle difference. But but if you right now you have an existing frame in which the sashes sit. And so when when a replacement window is used, the sashes are often removed, the existing frame is laid in place. And so the new windows are actually smaller than the original by the the dimension of the frame around the the new windows that are being put in. So there’s another level of detail that’s added. That is a little bit different. That is more typical. Yeah. So I
Speaker 6 37:09
know he did talk to me about that when we were walking through the house. But I could not I could not accurately recall that information. Okay, sorry.
Speaker 1 37:19
No worries. Let’s see. First I have Commissioner Jacoby.
Speaker 5 37:25
Just Yes, thank you. So I was adding up the windows and the bills here. It’s 18 windows. Is that right? Yes. Okay. And you said that there’s a safety concern, and that is that they can open or what is the safety concern? Well, the
Speaker 6 37:41
safety concern is Was that me? Yeah, you probably just get the safety concern is when the glass breaks, it breaks incredibly dangerously. I have small children and they are head height or above the bottom of those windows.
Speaker 5 37:58
Well, I have noticed that you have beautiful poured glass windows, I live a block south you are all of them poured glass, do you know are half of them still and half of them replaced at this point? Do you have any idea?
Speaker 6 38:10
I know that in the original house, the original bottom floor, and in the addition that was built 10 years later above? There is the same quality of glass in the addition in the back I don’t
Speaker 5 38:22
think so you can see that. Yeah. It’s it’s
Unknown Speaker 38:25
gorgeous, which is why I want to keep it on the property for sure.
Speaker 5 38:28
So the safety issue with the glass being
Speaker 6 38:32
fragile, being breaking it logically right? So like when you smash a modern window?
Unknown Speaker 38:40
Oh, sorry. Sorry. I didn’t see you there.
Speaker 6 38:42
Thank you see, okay. Might be me. When you break modern glass. It shatters safe, right? And when you and when you break antique glass like that. I’ve heard them lovingly recall, referred to as limb removers. So not to be inflammatory, but they break incredibly dangerously.
Unknown Speaker 39:06
Okay. So it’s the antique
Speaker 6 39:08
easily because they are antique glass. Oh, you’d have
Unknown Speaker 39:12
to be careful in a greenhouse to
Speaker 6 39:14
but anyway, my children don’t live in a greenhouse and operable
Speaker 5 39:18
windows. You say they’re inoperable before you you caught them all shut.
Speaker 6 39:22
Is that right? Yes. Most of them I caught them in between the two
Speaker 5 39:26
before you caulk them. Because couldn’t some of them open? Or did half of them open or none of them are all
Unknown Speaker 39:32
open? They all open? They all open verbal before
Unknown Speaker 39:35
the cocking do they open?
Speaker 6 39:37
They have gaps. They just they’re not. They’re not lined up. Right. So my solution to that was my limited resources was to caulk them. Okay. That was like, oh, no, it’s cold out. There’s cold air shooting into my house. I’ll cook it. That’s how it went. So
Speaker 5 39:52
I think there’s another class of questions, safety and operability. I think that was Thank you.
Speaker 1 39:59
Thank you. Alright, thanks, Commissioner Norton,
Speaker 7 40:03
thank you. I’m. So I’m incredibly sympathetic to everything you described. It, also living in historic houses and working in historic preservation. I’m slightly alarmed that what you described is not going to be fixed by this immense cost of replacing these windows. Have you ever had any sort of historic structure assessment, or energy audit or something like that,
Speaker 6 40:37
where they do the heat gun, and they see where the heats actually being lost?
Unknown Speaker 40:41
And they’re like, Okay, and
Unknown Speaker 40:45
it was primarily through the windows.
Speaker 7 40:47
Okay, that’s with two new H vac systems in the house and still unable to get up to 42, as well as some of your descriptions of like being able to see like, chinking through your through your foundation and stuff. Knowing that, oftentimes, Windows or not the even old windows, even even poor repaired Windows rarely account for the majority of heat loss in a home,
Speaker 6 41:20
right, usually through the roof. It is yeah. And so both the attic and the crawlspace have been insulated with spray foam.
Speaker 7 41:28
Okay. Okay. You just might have some larger issues at this immense expense. And I’m I’m saying this as a professional, to someone who’s obviously in need of taking care in wanting to and I totally recognize that. But I would want you before you move forward with this to recognize that what you’ve proposed to do today might not actually fix your problems.
Speaker 6 41:59
Yeah, that’s my concern was actually the alternative suggestions. Yeah, you know, if replacing my Windows won’t work, a storm windows not going to work. And fixing the operation ability of the existing Windows is not going to work either.
Speaker 7 42:15
So what I’m actually well, no, because what it will do is it will increase the efficiency. But if you’re not losing the majority of your heat through your windows, like it sounds like there’s something else going on in your home,
Unknown Speaker 42:26
what could it be? Typically,
Speaker 7 42:29
it’s often lack of insulation in the walls. That’s the primary factor for loss of heat in any home.
Speaker 6 42:34
And what does one do about that with lath and plaster?
Unknown Speaker 42:39
That’s always a great do the
Speaker 6 42:40
best they can with what they’ve got, I suppose would be window replacement. Right? I can’t break open my walls, can I?
Speaker 7 42:49
Yes. Yes. But what I what I’m saying is that replacing your windows might not fix your problem, you might still have huge energy bills. And so I think that thinking about the storms, and maybe doing a cost benefit analysis of what the storms and the repairs that staff has recommended, might be a more reasonable option. And then thinking about where your actual heat loss issues are.
Speaker 6 43:22
So I’ve done my homework on this. I had someone come out and do a heat assessment. That’s why I insulated my attic and my crawlspace and that’s why I sealed the leaks with caulk and plastic as best I could on my own. I don’t have the luxury of spending $20,000 on storm windows to then spend 45 on Windows. I don’t have that luxury. So.
Speaker 5 43:51
You know, I again, I do have a house about the same age as yours. 1886. And i i When we talked about this last time, I had some skepticism about the data showing that repaired historic windows with storm windows would be effective. But so I did some research before tonight’s meeting. And if you go to the National Park Service website where they talk about historic preservation, they point out at 2002 study confirmed that installing a storm window over historic window can achieve similar thermal performance to that of a new low E window. That study was done at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs. If you use a very trusted source such as this old house.com You know, it was reading there how to repair sash windows. And I can tell you I’ve done some of the repairs myself on my windows. Some are very easy and you can do yourself you don’t have to wait like the glazing is very simple. And I’ve done that. I built some of my own interior storm windows and I’ve had I’m commercially replaced depends on what level of ability you’re having yes, if you’re a single mom with two kids, I understand who’s going to have time for that. But a lot of this can be hired out to a simple handyman. But this old house said, a single pane double hung windows for the 19th century, don’t have the best of reputations, they can be notoriously drafty, full of rattles loosen the joints or can simply refuse to budge. But as a number of studies have shown a number of studies, these windows are, if these windows are properly whether stripped and paired with good storm windows, they can match the performance of new double pane windows at your windows for much less than new ones cost. And you’re saying that expense is a significant issue for you. And I understand I think if you can get the same performance for less money, you’re going to do yourself a huge favor when I had my energy audit. He said, Yes, your windows are horrible, don’t replace the windows put in storms. I don’t know what your energy audit said. But I’d go back and read it. Because even if that’s the primary source of loss of heat, it may still benefit you economically, to put storms and have them revamped. I’m just I’m just saying I don’t know.
Speaker 6 46:16
Yeah, absolutely. I think I read the article that you’re referring to when I was desperate in the dead of winter trying to fix my windows. So I know exactly what you’re talking about the first source that you cited, I would love to read more about that. The second is a for profit television show. So I can’t really I can’t really take that to heart. However, I do have information from energy energystar.gov Saying that single pane windows replaced with double pane can see 22% savings, whereas a single pane with a storm window over it is a 10% savings. And that’s a government website. And I’d be happy to offer that information. I do. I appreciate the idea that that it’s about cost savings for me, because it really is I mean, at the end of the day, it’s a one income house. I love living in my neighborhood and I would hate to be priced out, right. That’s not what we want. We don’t want normal people priced out of nice neighborhoods. And I don’t think anyone really wants that. But it all seems a little bit like a gamble, doesn’t it? I mean, there’s a lot of mites being thrown around. There’s a lot of maybes, there’s a lot of you know, I weighed all my options. I looked at all these options. Every time Jennifer asked me, Did you talk to this type of contractor? My answer was yes. Here’s the bid that I received. I have looked at all my options. I’ve had the energy rating done. And, and for my home that I love so much. This was the best possible scenario that I could figure out. None of us are window restoration experts, right? No, no, none in the room. So I guess we’re all just operating off of the best information that we have. Right? Are you are you working? Right, but you don’t repair windows? Do you? Okay, so So I wouldn’t call you a window restoration professional. So yeah, so we’re all just making the best assessment of the situation that we can, knowing that there are an impossible number of variables here. And no one really knows the answer because every website has different information. So that would be my response to that I’ve considered everything. And I was very frank with Jennifer in our email communications, about why I decided against certain things. I was trying to be as honest and transparent as I could because I’m a human who really only has limited resources. And I’m trying to make the best judgments I can for my home.
Speaker 1 49:00
I can certainly appreciate that. I am a historic restoration architect. So while I have not physically repaired windows, I have been involved with many projects where others have the the interior secretary standards, which are the standards that we are supposed to uphold here on this commission is kind of our whole point are pretty clear about about Windows being important and that historic fabric, and we’ve got a home from 1878 Was it something like that?
Unknown Speaker 49:40
18 a mine yeah, 1886
Speaker 1 49:43
Maybe Maybe it was so a house. It’s been around for a pretty long time. We’ve got a professional restoration contractor that you’ve connected with that could potentially do this work. storm windows have a very long track record of being successful in historic preservation. Whether you get, and I tend to agree with Commissioner Norton, that you may have a bigger problem than your Windows based on what I’m hearing. But the storm window would be something that would be appropriate to the historic home, it’s a landmark house, which, for better or for worse, means it’s got a higher standard that it has to meet than another home that doesn’t have a landmark. With the storm windows, you would potentially save money over the replacement. And that would actually qualify for its for a tax credit. So you could come back in here with the work with the receipts from that storm window replacement, and we could approve it. And you could send it to the state and get a credit for something like 30, some percentage 30% of the cost of the actual work that you could claim on your taxes, so it would be even yet more economically advantageous to do the store. So I am still feeling like this is not something that ought to be discarded. I think, I think yeah, no,
Speaker 6 51:23
absolutely. I think if they could put in the storm windows before winter came, I would be all for it.
Speaker 1 51:29
Well, at the same time, the home has been there since the 1800s.
Unknown Speaker 51:34
And it’s been in office since the 70s. Not lived
Speaker 1 51:36
only has been there for that long and to say that in absence of a handful of months. i Sorry, I understand your position. But I don’t feel like I could support an argument that says this material should be lost for the sake of six months,
Speaker 6 51:56
and materials not being lost. I would like to restate their small children living in the home that don’t have free rein of every part of the home without coats and socks and shoes. And I think disregard of that fact is harsh.
Speaker 6 52:19
The storm window replacement or creation cannot happen until winter is almost over. Or spring. That’s the fact.
Unknown Speaker 52:32
Yeah, sure. Commissioner Jacoby.
Speaker 5 52:36
Yeah. You’ve lived in the house, two years, three years, something like that. Yeah. For years, you know, how the office managed to survive. If it was kept at 40 degrees in the wintertime. They had baseboard
Speaker 6 52:46
heating, which I took out because it was unsafe for my kids.
Speaker 5 52:52
So different heating system, you think your heating system can keep it up if the old system did? Well, I
Speaker 6 52:57
don’t know. I don’t know. I toured the House in January, before we made an offer. It was toasty in there. It was there were space heaters in every room. And then the baseboard heaters weren’t going. But I do remember it being warm in there, which was part of the somehow collusion about this whole thing. They made
Speaker 5 53:19
it livable somehow. 400 years before you were there. Well, yeah. Well, they managed to viable commercial establishment before you were there for four years. And before that, it was a house it was the Bemis row and house. And I can tell you about those folks built it too. But they did manage to find it make it livable somehow. And I’m wondering what they did that you’re not doing unless it’s the change in the H back system that is inadequate, or, or something?
Speaker 6 53:50
I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not entirely sure. I haven’t changed any of the structure of the home. I do know that it’s it’s drafty between the first floor and the second floor. There are lots of different rooms. And so when possible, I always keep those doors closed, right? Because that is the most efficient way to heat the home. But I haven’t changed anything structurally about it. And I don’t imagine adding more heat to the space would make it colder. My only answer is I don’t know. Maybe they lived in the cold.
Unknown Speaker 54:29
Any other questions for the applicant? Thank you. We appreciate your time.
Unknown Speaker 54:36
Yes, thank you for your time.
Speaker 1 54:40
Okay, so with that I need to officially open the public comment section of this. Is there anyone in the audience who would like to speak on this matter? Please come up approach. If you would just state your name and address please
Speaker 8 55:00
Hi, I’m Kyle Schultz, I live at 601. Call your street. So the greenhouse just across from Lizzie, we have an equally old home, we have double pane windows, those windows were somehow approved, I think in 2017, before we bought the property, so in any case, we just had to put a new heater in, in the Boulder County requires a energy efficient heating system now. And so alternative versions of heating aren’t really up to code. So I just wonder if any of that is being considered in this in this discussion, because we are required to have these H H E systems that are very, very pricey. So that’s my only comment. And again, you know, we all bought these houses, knowing their historical houses I grew up in Pennsylvania and, and a house that was built in 1850. And I know what it’s like to be cold all winter. And it’s not a very pleasant thing, right. Cold and damp. In Pennsylvania, we have the rain, which we don’t have here. And I just think we’re a lot of young families here, coming to this community, it’s really important for us to live in these homes and to be part of this community. But we do have to modernize and we have to adapt. And I know that that goes against preservation. That’s against the word itself. But ultimately, it’s not very feasible for some of us financially, we don’t have millions of dollars to do all of these things. And time we’re raising families, I’m working full time. You know, getting a contractor on the phone, like even just for a simple thing. We’re having some plaster repaired. I mean, it takes months and to get people out there. And just to keep these things in mind about young families moving into the neighborhood and, and trying to balance your goals with our goals, and making sure that we’re all taking care of these homes. And that’s all I have to say. Thanks. Thank you.
Speaker 1 56:53
Any one else? No. Okay, I’ll go ahead and close the public comment, and leave it to the Commission for any further discussion.
Unknown Speaker 57:12
I’m gonna call on Commissioner bar
Speaker 3 57:13
for so for the sake of discussion, I would like to see where we all are, I would move that we approve the application. Second.
Speaker 1 57:26
Okay, I have a motion to approve the application and a second further discussion.
Speaker 3 57:33
As the maker of the motion, as be sure. I I just really believe we have to deal in a world of reality. And I understand I’m a very big supporter of the secretary standards. But I think, you know, in a real in a real world, we have to deal with people who have homes, and I really liked the way that this application has been developed. I read it over the weekend. And I think there’s a real effort being made to do what can be done within the scope of what’s realistic to be done. And so I think we have to we have, you know, we are a commission, we’re not a rubber stamp, we don’t just say, okay, boom, no, boom, yes, whatever. We think about things and we make decisions based on how we think they’re going to work. I think we heard some opinions already on what people feel based on their own experiences. So my based on my experiences and my understanding and my expertise to why I’m here. I I would ask for support in this motion.
Unknown Speaker 58:43
further comment. Commissioner Jacoby,
Speaker 5 58:50
it this is a very difficult decision, because we clearly all want to live in very livable homes. We want warm children. We want this to be affordable and affordability in Boulder County is crazy, even in Longmont. And I’m torn between the desire to help as soon as possible. With the data that I’ve seen that says equal amounts of comfort can be provided more cheaply, in a way that historic that maintains historic preservation. That’s what the data that I’m reading online says, and I’m not trying to be cold when I say that, I think I don’t want you to be literally cold. I think it’s very important. I think you point out that safety is a consideration because of old glass well when you move into Do you ever move into a new historic home and plan to replace all the glass because the safety issues No. You understand as part of the house and it has benefits with the beautiful import nature of the glass and it has some drawbacks. It is is more brittle, and it requires more maintenance. And moving it to a greenhouse is not going to make it safer if in your your family, I don’t think but there’s lots of ways you can look at the data and you can shape it and point it in the direction you want. But the data that I see, that seems to be least biased is, frankly, what I’m seeing online. And again, I encourage you to look at the the national park site service site on historic preservation. And I think that we can achieve the same goals with comfort, for less money by doing restoration rather than replacement. So I’m leaning towards not approving this, for that reason, not because I don’t want to see you live there not because I don’t want to see you uncomfortable. But because I think you can achieve the same level of comfort more cheaply meeting the historic guidelines. Other
Speaker 1 1:01:09
commissioners, oh, there we go. Okay. Commissioner Sibley?
Speaker 9 1:01:13
Thanks. Um, I thank you for saying that, Rick. And I really appreciate all the things that you’re trying to do. Um, as far as reusing the windows and doing replacing, like, with, as close to like, as you can, those are all wonderful I am. And this is really, it’s tough. We have denied similar types of applications in the past. Um, every time I go to any sort of meetings, conferences on windows are always the biggest topic. Once they’re gone, they’re gone. If it you know, gets moved to a greenhouse, and something happens to them. They’re there. They’re done. I’m I don’t want you guys to be cold either. I really don’t. I’m I think that’s awful to hear those kinds of things. And I think if one person has said that, yes, they can’t start until fall. Yeah, maybe that’s not the person to go to I, and I’m sorry, I have not called a bunch of people to see, like, you know, who’s busy, who isn’t busy? What kinds of resources out there? I think before I approve any sort of replate fill out replacement. I would really encourage you to just make more calls. And maybe you have I’m but I guess I’d like to see more denials. You know, what do you mean, I just once those windows are removed out of that house, they’re removed. And you know, that’s just, that’s just like one of the biggest things that we hear in preservation. And so I just, I’m having a real hard time saying yes to that. So it’s really
Speaker 1 1:03:09
any other comments. For my part, you know, I couldn’t support approval of the application, I think we, as a commission have a very clear mandate to follow the Secretary of Interior standards, the standards are really super clear, we have a path forward to improve the energy efficiency of the home in an appropriate way, that’s more economical. That’s, that is a win for everyone. And that is the path that’s established for this. And we have at least one contractor that that can do it. And perhaps there are others. And if the issue was simply a matter of time, then, you know, in the big picture of what happens 10 years from now with a landmark house. Again, as it’s already been stated that once the windows are gone, they’re gone. I think we have a clear mandate. So those are my comments. With that, unless there are no further comment, I will call for a vote. So we have a motion on the floor to approve the application and we have a second. All those in favor of approving the application, please say aye. Aye. So we have Commissioner Barnard and Commissioner Fenster, All those opposed nay, so the the application or the motion does fail. So I will need another motion
Speaker 7 1:04:44
I’ll move to deny to accept staff recommendation and deny the application.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:50
Okay, have a motion to deny from Commissioner Norton.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:56
I’ll second it,
Speaker 1 1:04:57
and a second from Commissioner Jacoby any further comment? Seeing none, I’ll call for a vote all those in favor of denial the application, please say aye. Aye. All those opposed? No. Okay, so by the same score we have the application is denied for too, we would strongly encourage you to go out there and get those storm Window Quotes and and then come back and and show us that you put the storm windows in and we can approve a tax credit for you. And you can get some more money back, as I think it will. It’ll work.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:48
Steve, I have a question for staff, if I may.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:52
Sure. I guess that’s okay.
Speaker 3 1:05:54
Glenn, you and I have had some back and forth correspondence on the question of, of last resort. And just when when is a decision of different Commission’s like the Planning and Zoning Commission as a last resort commission? If you don’t, if you don’t, if you don’t agree with the decision of planning and zoning, your option is to go to court. You can’t go to the city council. No at all remember it that way? If they’re the final decision maker like a variance, then you go to the Superior Court. Other than that you appealed City Council. Okay, so the applicant here has the choice of either go and do a bunch of other stuff or appealing this decision to city council. Correct. Just want to make sure the applicant knew that. Right.
Speaker 1 1:06:49
Thank you. We do appreciate you coming in here. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but we appreciate your time. Okay, we will move on to our second item on the agenda which is new business, an update on the steam and sugar factory sub area plan from Mr. Scope.
Speaker 3 1:07:11
Just as real quick introduction, I think we are showed you or came before you with a presentation maybe two years ago. We’ve had some stops and goes with this project primarily because we started there was no interest in this area. And now there’s a lot of interest in this area. So we’ve tried to mold the plan to kind of meet what developer interest was showing us and so we have a draft that is being reviewed by staff at this point, but we thought this was a good chance to come before us. So I asked Tony each kohner redevelopment manager to present what we have today. And then ultimately we go to the planning commission will give a formal recommendation and on to city council.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:05
Great, well, thank you and welcome. Get the mic turned on for him. Get your mic turned on.
Speaker 10 1:08:14
My name is Tony Chico, and I’m the redevelopment manager for the city. And in conjunction with that, I also run the urban renewal authority for the city of Longmont. And as Glenn mentioned, one of our major projects is trying to get the preservation of a significant portion of the sugar mill if not all elements of the sugar mill because if you may be aware, parts of it have either crumbled already, or have had fires associated with it. So in that regards, we’re seeing what we could do to move forward with preservation. So here, this is called the steam or sugar factory and steam plan and just let you know, sometimes we use different terminology there people will refer to it as sugar mill. And we’ve been advised it’s a sugar factory. But it didn’t explain how on earth the road has always been called Sugar Mill Road. So just let you know. So to this day, there’s still confusion on that. But in reference to this plan, we’re talking about the sugar factory. I will refrain from talking substantially about the steam area, because I believe your interest is primarily with the sugar mill property itself and what that entails. So we’ll be focusing on that as part of this presentation. So here you can see a layout of what we’re I have identified as the sugar mill redevelopment area. It includes properties beyond those associated specifically with historic buildings. It also extends out to Martin Street portions out there in primarily because we do have development activity that starts tends to take place in that particular area. And then we’re also going out to the intersection of third and Cam Pratt, because we do have some development interest at that location. And just let you know why we would look at bringing those into this project or this project area is they have the capability to start generating revenue, that we’re going to need to make this project work. So some elements of the plan, the sugar factory plan that, and I’m talking about the plan now that the city is putting forth this highly visible historic icon, which you all know that operations ceased in the early 1980s. So it’s been basically sitting vacant for that period of time. Not totally true, the current owner utilizes for his tinkering. So all the buildings are filled up with all sorts of equipment and such that he works on. So historic structures are still standing in varying levels of condition. And if you notice, they didn’t say in levels of structural integrity, because regardless of the brick falling down, it still has structural integrity, because it’s actually a steel framed, member, that the bricks effectively just filled in the voids between the steel members there, so all the bricks could fall down, you would still have the skeleton there. It’s underutilized as approximately about 200 acres of undeveloped island in total. And that’s all those properties I’ve been talking about. And with it, there are several, what we consider large, undeveloped areas that really offer a great opportunity to generate development around the historic buildings then also help us produce that revenue that’s going to be needed. And of course, it’s within proximity to the historic downtown area. So some of the challenges, I think the photos alone, most probably give you some idea about the buildings that we’re talking about. So just let you know, that condition there up upper right corner, that’s actually the interior of the main factory building. And that condition is on all three, four floors of that, that building, so it’s pretty significant problem. Some some area challenges, annexation, so contrary to what a lot of people think, those parcels where the buildings are located, and that that large parcel just to the south where there’s the metal shed, and the outdoor storage. Those are not within the city limits currently. And there’s been a lot of reasons that have been put forth as to why the city doesn’t want to annex it at this time. The number one concern is the city then would have to take on responsibility for public safety and code enforcement. There’s environmental contamination and unstable soils. So we have been working with EPA, they’ve done significant sampling in the area. They’ve done some phase one and phase two work and asbestos survey. And the estimate right now to clean up the property, including the buildings of asbestos ranges from 30 to $50 million. So it’s not cheap. Now, the question would be, why would you look to preserve those buildings with that cost estimate? Well, the reason is, if you if you demoed it, you’d still have to incur a significant cost on the asbestos remediation, you just can’t knock it down. So and on the other side of the equation, too, is if it starts falling down, and gets exposed to the elements, we have that possible problem regardless to so that’s why we feel it’s a little important to start focusing on this area right now. They’re demolition, removal of the internal building equipment. There’s just massive equipment in here that has to come out. There are boiler tanks as big as this room 20 to 30 of them, and they’re all on upper floors, nothing’s on the lower floor. It’s all on the upper floors. There’s two large boilers that used to fuel this plant, they have to come out and all this equipment is laid in with this asbestos insulation product on it. Other challenges, of course, we have the rail tracks immediately adjacent and the sewer treatment plant. Those make a wonderful environment for housing development. historic building reuse is unknown at this time. So given its present condition, it’s really hard to figure out what you can do in there, we’ve had ideas ranging from markets, farmer’s markets to just general retail markets, restaurant space, hospitality, possible hotels and so forth. But right now it’s up in the air. And so without any prospective tenants, it makes it a little harder to move forward with any development of this location. And believe it or not, our development standards don’t necessarily align with the vision of what this area could be. So for example, street widths, our current development requirements have these masses street wits, when we’re trying to create a tight knit community that would promote pedestrian activity and so forth. Lack of access and infrastructure is virtually non existent. There is one large main sewer trunk line that runs through the site. But beyond that, there is nothing on the site that could serve as any kind of development. So that would LF to come in, and large mining and wetlands area. So the southern part by the rail tracks is actually part of mining rights. And they have those rights for the next some, like 10 to 15 years to actually excavate. So the question is, how do you go about alleviating those conditions. So opportunities, though, so I just thought all said and talked about all the bad stuff. So let’s talk about the good stuff, the plan looks that. So again, number one, preservation and reuse of historic buildings, we feel as staff, it is very critical. And I would contend that the community is behind this, it’s critical to try and preserve as many of those and restore as many of those historic buildings as we possibly can. Okay. And just for information, if you’re not aware, the plant was actually built over a number of years and added onto so there is no single architectural element on any of those buildings, there all have a distinct period of time and a little variance accordingly. Connectivity and enhancements to the open space and st brain, we see that in our planning effort to better get across the tracks down to the st. Frank Craig. Right now, it’s pretty much landlocked accordingly, looking for incorporation of sustainable practices, whether that be energy, or whether actually be the type of building materials, we’re trying to push, long term adaptive reuse or reuse long term on some of these buildings that would be built possibility of a visually appealing gateway into the city. Even though it’s well into the city limits, it really is the first visual you have of Longmont from the East
Speaker 10 1:18:05
Center of social and cultural activity. That’s what we’re looking for agricultural and historic education and programs. And so one thing the plan looks at is how can we build on the history of its agricultural base. And not necessarily having production of agricultural product, but some support or educational component that would bring that to the attention of the general public. So yeah, we’re talking about making this a nice part of the community. But we also want people to understand it did have a history associated with it. improve connectivity to downtown right now. Now, the rail tracks are a big obstacle towards that, really, the only way you can get downtown has go up to Third Avenue, and then down Third Avenue. And at that particular location there, the traffic speeds are such they’re not very conducive to bicycle and pedestrian movements. So that would be one factor in this plan. And then qualities for qualifies as an urban renewal district and TIF funding. So we have done a blight study of what they call a condition survey. Now, it’s also a blight study, and the area, believe it or not, qualifies as blighted and therefore we can expand upon annexation to the city. We can expand that area into the existing urban renewal district or create a separate distinct one for that particular area. And with that, then we would be able to access what is known as tax increment funds. And that’s effectively the money the taxes that are generated above what is currently collected as the development proceeds. And we believe on full build out it could bring several it could bring an excess of about $80 million that we could work with to help make this project happen. So again, the sub area plan priorities, of course, you’ve heard this housing. And so the plan would is looking at promoting a diverse range of housing affordability. So I don’t want to say it’s affordable housing. But we we need some elements of the lower income housing, as well as some of the higher income housings to allow them to balance out transportation. As noted, we need some better connections between the various main roads in that general area. And that includes, of course, trying to work with the railroads to figure out how we get across the railroads, or the notion has actually come out the possibility and it is referenced in the plan that the possibility of negotiating the railroads relocating somewhere at some point in the future. We haven’t started that yet. But it’s a hope. And then development. This connectivity talks about primarily to the development opportunities, not only at the sugar factory area, but the steam area, and that there is high level of development interest in both those areas right now. And so what we don’t want to do is create these islands of new development that are not integrated with each other. And so that’s what we’re promoting as part of this sub area plan. Community is basically building into any new development, these active spaces for people and culture and arts is one element in that. And then sustainability, again, is trying to work towards a sustainable environment. Just let you know, one thought we actually have from an energy standpoint is the proximity that the wastewater treatment plant is such that you can actually get heat off the pipes that actually can serve a community there, which is rather interesting. So again, the sewer plant has a negative connotation, but actually may have a favorable and maybe not just towards the development there. But if some agricultural elements like greenhouses and stuff were built into the project, that would be a good source of heat. So, as I mentioned, development requirements are such that it kind of imposes some challenges to getting the vision built in this particular area. So the plan talks about some proposed code modifications. Number one is increasing the allowable building heights. There are restrictions that effectively limit housing to about five six storeys, but there may not be interest. Well, but if you have affordable housing, and he, he adds them on all the time for me. We stand there with our hands going, Oh, and if you do this, but generally, the building height limitation is really challenging, and particularly as it relates to the factory itself, because that factory actually stands higher than what a five or six storey building would be. So that’s one thing we’re looking at is building heights. Most probably more, a little less restriction in the steam area because it’s at a lower elevation. But we’re also looking at it on the sugar factory also. So consolidation of the utility easements and to the right away. So right now, for example, the city’s electric utility, in addition to right away asks for a five to 10 foot easement outside the right away. And so what happens is your buildings actually have to be set back farther than what you would like to create this pedestrian environment. So that’s one thing we’re looking at narrower alternative street designs either reduce or eliminating the parking requirements, because one thing we don’t want is a massive sea of parking, surface parking. And the cost to build parking garages is astronomical right now. It’s about $40,000 of space. So the other option is let’s see what we can do to minimize the parking need and capacity there. Regional storm detention and water quality so we have a great opportunity in that the city owns land on the south side of the rail tracks, that’s sandwiched between the rail tracks and the same brain and I actually provides a great opportunity to put in a high quality wetland area. And so we’re looking at that permit consolidation of smaller parks and plazas. So within the code, there is a requirement for developments to provide public spaces. And so some of these don’t make sense on smaller developments. And so the idea is, let’s figure out how we collectively put them into one location, so that you have a one acre or two acre space for people. And then we were looking at the possibility of a regulatory overlay district to give us more specification to the type of product and how it would be laid out. And then we the plan has a recommendation that we the city read visit the Metro district ordinance. So right now, the Metro district ordinance does not allow that district to encompass residential or include residential, unless it’s less than 50% of the square footage of the commercial, which effectively makes it impossible to utilize it in any reasonable capacity. So that’s something that we will be resurrecting hopefully, with the City Council, at least for a discussion. And you would ask them, what’s the reason for that? Well, that’s one way we can build all the infrastructure and not put a significant burden on the back of the city. Infrastructure and funding that’s covered in the plan. We’re looking at identifying needed area wide public infrastructure improvements. So the plan does detail a roadway net for generalized roadway network, for example, within which you would do lay the utilities. It talks about public personal and public private partnerships. What that effectively means is the we’re out there partnering with the developers, where they bring maybe three quarters of the equity towards the project. And then the public entities primarily the urban renewal authority would bring maybe the other third,
Speaker 10 1:27:18
looking at the potential creation of a special financing district, whether that be a metro district or other such as a general improvement district, and then again, incorporate the area into an urban renewal district that would get us to the tip funding. And then also pursuit of environmental and infrastructure grants and loans from foundation state and federal agencies. And, for example, the federal EPA has a grant to help fund remediation. The caveat being that the municipality actually has to own the property. And of course, we don’t own it right now. So for example, we’d have to figure out a mechanism to to be able to pursue those funds. But there is some money up there out there. And it’s little bits here and there. You know, it could be through the historic funds that are out there if they choose to pursue that route. And so it’s critical. So every few million dollars helps. That’s the way I’m putting it. Hopefully you brought your checkbooks I have the donation pan in the back on the way out the door. Yeah. So the plan also looks at land use character and urban design elements, historic restoration, and reuse and promotion, higher density mixed use development that would hopefully lead to some level of affordability. diverse housing provides a diverse range of housing, providing varying levels of attainability. And I put their life cycle adaptability so as one ages, and they don’t need as much space or if they need additional space for a new young one. They have the means of somehow adapting that to accommodate it. And so for example, some housing that’s being built now, they they effectively build a large closet space into the house that can be converted to an elevator to allow older persons to be able to get to the bedrooms, for example. Yeah, yeah. And so, employment opportunity, so this most likely area would most likely get an MMU II designation, which is mixed use employment. And with the term employment, the primary emphasis is try and create and bring jobs into the area there for idea of public spaces, urban agricultural elements, which we talked about human scale of walkability, green infrastructure and sustainable energy, and innovative storm water management, those are all features that are outlined in the plan. And then on the mobility side, a emphasis on pedestrians and bicycle facilities. And I do emphasize that is most probably one of the biggest elements on the transportation that we’re really pushing as part of this plan. Doesn’t mean we won’t have vehicular traffic, but we’re trying to design it would be designed in a manner to minimize those impacts, for example, provide multimodal circulation and connectivity, there is the thought that can we possibly extend either bus service, or when rail ever comes rail service to this particular location, reduce parking demand and capacity, enhance connectivity st to the various streets and greenways. And then pursue and incorporate public transit and micro mobility measures and then pursue ad grade or grade separated crossings of the rail tracks. So again, that’s where we’re trying to figure out how to get up over around the rail tracks there. And this is the developer that’s currently one of the developers that’s currently looking at this particular site. This is just kind of a general conceptual idea. Ignore the Italian architecture, and they all have Well, the story the the design, or for this group actually was out of Guatemala City. And so thus, you can imagine their flavor for architecture. Right. And so, but yeah, it’s, you know, it, I think it does give a generalized idea of how that area could become a robot bust an active part of the Longmont community. And with that, questions and comments, and you can send them to my email this post it up there. We could probably get any comments.
Speaker 1 1:32:19
We could probably bribe Glenn to get get us your email. But thank you.
Speaker 10 1:32:24
Thank you. Glad to answer any questions you may have.
Unknown Speaker 1:32:28
Let’s see. Commissioner Norton Did you.
Speaker 7 1:32:34
Thank you, um, thank you so much for your presentation. And for the materials in our packet. I actually really love the direction this is going. And actually a lot of the things I love about it have nothing to do with historic preservation. But I feel like Longmont is really thinking in like some very contemporary cutting edge, like urban planning ways with trying, you know, smaller streets and more mobility. And so I really like this direction. And I also appreciate the challenges that the sugar factory poses, and I appreciate that that is still a concern that we maintain that because it really is iconic for Longmont. So that’s all I just think this is really cool.
Unknown Speaker 1:33:27
Let’s see Commissioner Jacoby,
Speaker 5 1:33:29
thank you. Two comments, I guess. I’m not a planner. I wish I was. But you mentioned that wide streets. But wide streets and then a setback for utilities as a hindrance for walkability. But all of our downtown has very wide streets, and then quite a setback to the sidewalks before we get to the property, proper for the homeowners, and it’s quite walkable. And I’m trying to think what makes that walkable despite the wide streets and the setbacks. And I’m thinking it’s the trees and the heterogeneity of the neighborhood were so close to retail. And mixing retail with housing in very close contexts might make it walkable despite wide streets and setbacks and whatnot. So that was the one thought the other thought was when I shared with Glenn A while ago, just the tin shed. There was some talk a while ago about making an indoor athletic arena. And I thought what a perfect purpose for a huge tin shed, but may and that could be part of the public space, you know, you know, and who knows, maybe you could even put some solar cells on the top of it making renewable energy. So that just thoughts on the thing?
Speaker 10 1:34:51
Yeah, if I can respond to that. So yeah, right now the city manager is in discussions with the developer about that potential reuse. for that building, there is one option. The intent within the plan would be to preserve as many of those buildings as possible. But so that would include the tin shed. But it can’t, we can’t say that the tin shed could go away. But there is an opportunity to maybe even preserve a portion of it. Because if you’re familiar with it, there’s a it’s kind of two buildings put together. There, the northern portion is a little bit smaller, but it still has that kind of architectural image. So there’s there’s options relative to its utilization and not to say dismissed that that would be an important element or not, the plans would accommodate it in place, or some modification, therefore, but it’s truly in the interest to try to preserve it if possible.
Speaker 9 1:35:56
Thanks, Commissioner Sibley. Oh, you lost you. Sorry, there we go. The buttons turning. So first of all, hurry up. Because because this sounds like a really fun place to retire. And I only have so many years, I’m not too easy. Um, the other thing is, I come from the Detroit area, which is anybody knows, never had any issues with blight or anything. So that is a little different than here. But I used to do a bunch of tours of the Eastern Market area. And this makes me think of that, because, you know, it was, you know, beer factories and cheese makers, and, you know, and all these different things. And, you know, in some places, there’s actually people working and selling stuff and retail, but then also, there’s all these factories with these little tiny, narrow streets. What a fabulous place. And, and a lot of that stuff is being redone, or has been redone. And so I look at this, and I go, Oh, my God, to have that online. How exciting. So I, I love this. So thank you.
Speaker 10 1:37:04
If I could just add to that. This actually, this project would be the first project in Colorado that preserved one of the sugar beet plants, all the other ones are getting torn down, because they cannot find any viable reuse for them. So that’s why in part, we’re strongly encouraging reutilization of these buildings.
Speaker 9 1:37:27
I still remember the first time seeing all this
Speaker 1 1:37:40
it’s definitely an iconic room. What What kind of jobs would you envision happening there? If that’s really a primary
Speaker 10 1:37:49
component? Well, again, you know, we’ve talked about kind of the agricultural theme. And so one thought is that we go out and look for some of these ag research firms. So, for example, there’s a there’s actually an internationally owned Seed Company. In proximity, it’s called Magno seed. They’re owned by some Swedish, firm, large company. And so it could, we’d be looking at the possibility of trying to attract a single user or two, or, you know, maybe a handful that are involved in seed research. Not necessarily Monsanto, but I understand that’s a no, no, but but there’s that element. For you may not be familiar. But a couple of years back, we had an Urban Land Institute do what they considered what they call a Technical Advisory Panel. And that was led by a, the individual from Colorado State University that was involved in the National Western Stock Show. Project. And to tell the truth, we’re using that as somewhat of a model for the energy component, because they do that they use the sewer heat. But having that tie in to CSU, and their research component is a good possibility also. So of course, there’s most probably going to be a lot of like retail trades, hospitality trades, if we get a hotel and stuff like that, but we do, we would still like to pursue some of these higher earning and professional jobs in the area there. And I think the the premise we’re working from is if we can get that building cleaned up and restored, then it makes it easier to go to those type of groups to say, what do you think? Because then it’s like, oh, yeah, I can see the vision as compared to the one slide I showed you, which is, yeah, I can’t see the vision because of the holes in the floor and all the equipment down there. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:39:55
All right, Commissioner Fenster.
Speaker 4 1:39:57
Yeah, has any concern celebration didn’t get into using the facility the premises for education and teaching. Would there be any schools for example, in the greater area that would be interested in utilizing the facility?
Speaker 10 1:40:17
Well, we’re we’re in conversations with like the community colleges and see you CSU. Nobody necessarily wants to build new facilities for education. But there could be elements where we create the space that can be utilized in some capacity and invite those persons to participate. One idea that has come to mind, for example, is there’s a group out of Boulder that operates like urban gardens. And what they do is they provide education to the community, and particularly youth on what farming is about how to go about doing it, and what you can do with some of the products that you raise and stuff. So that be an education. And in that vein, then we would be looking to work with the St. Francis School District. We’ve talked about it, could it be an agricultural innovation center, to some degree as compared to their other innovation, which is technology? Right? Yeah. So yeah, we definitely want to figure out how we integrate some educational components into the the area.
Speaker 7 1:41:31
Um, so not agriculture, but another really large kind of adaptive reuse and development project is going on in Trinidad with an arts district. And so that might be a really good model. There’s a lot of public private partnership money involved in that as well and historic preservation. That is a Dana, Miss Dana’s last name. Who did lodo. Thank you. Yes. It’s too late in the evening. It Dana Crawford’s involved in that, so there might be some other good models. I’ll keep all of my ideas to myself, because ideas are a dime a dozen, but I know you need like executable stuff. I’m
Speaker 10 1:42:13
probably just say, yeah, if any of you have any ideas, definitely throw them our way. Because right now we’re trying to think of anything possible. So even if it’s the most outlandish idea, gladly send it my way. I’m awesome
Speaker 7 1:42:27
at outlandish ideas. Um, the last outlandish one that I would say is, especially with CU Boulder in such close proximity, um, yes, we have a huge ag and, you know, a really big ag history. But we also have a really big on space industry here. And there’s a history of that not only in the state, but you know, smaller connections with Longmont. Um, those folks are always looking for space, so that those might be some potential partnerships. I’m, like, my urban planning, I’m on the periphery looking in, but I know those folks exist. My other question was going to be as exciting as all this stuff is, um, some of the ideas about like hotels and music venues and, you know, these these bigger things. Can Longmont sustain that? Like, can we it? If we build it? Will they come? Or is it? Do we have studies on that kind of stuff?
Speaker 10 1:43:26
Well, I think hospitality first is, first of all, the hotel industry is such that they’re not going to build if they don’t feel they’re going to be able to fill the space. That’s number one. That’s the corporate entities. However, there are boutique builders out there, of which we’re having one build one in downtown here that we never thought would come to the table. And so there are a lot of those type of enterprises that are looking to basically build, you know, 100 rooms there abouts, which could be built into a facility like the sugar factory. So hospitality, I think, yeah, I think people, we can easily fill space, if it’s built. On the other side, like anything related to culture, performing spaces, things like that. I think a lot of it’s going to be based upon the scale of it, and what that niche opportunity is So, you know, I don’t think Longmont personally could ever take on the Denver Center for poor performing arts, right. I mean, competitive wise, you’re not going to win. But if you look at Fort Collins, for example, they’ve become the hotbed for small indie bands. Touring Colorado right now it is the number one touring city in Colorado for small bands. And that’s because they have a multitude of smaller venues that they’re able to provide for those those parties. So. So we’re not saying the sugar mill necessarily have some big facility, but we believe it has the opportunity to have some elements that could kind of broaden our capability to host those type things.
Speaker 1 1:45:18
Do you know how much square footage of existing even potentially usable building there there is, offhand?
Unknown Speaker 1:45:27
200,000 square feet?
Unknown Speaker 1:45:29
That’s, that’s not small.
Speaker 10 1:45:31
Yeah. Although a lot of that, under its current structure, especially in the larger building, it’s really not full square footage, because it’s got big, open void areas for three storeys, so they’re not just wall to wall. Concrete, basically. However, when they redo the building, chances are they’re going to fill in some of those voids and get that that space they need.
Speaker 1 1:46:02
Right, thank you. Any other questions? Comments? We really appreciate you coming down here tonight. I know you had to sit here for a while. So but this is really great to to get this information out to us. And we certainly appreciate the commitment to preservation, as you might imagine. Well,
Speaker 10 1:46:19
yeah. And I appreciate y’all having me here. Especially since Glenn said I had to be here.
Unknown Speaker 1:46:29
Speaker 3 1:46:40
We are trying to host tours, we’ve gotten most of the city council through. There might be opportunities, if you’re interested to take a walkabout it’s a climb because they bring you all the way up and all the way down. But there may be some opportunities open up I think the person who has entered contract would really like to have eyes on the site. So you know what we’re dealing with. But I don’t know if anything’s been scheduled now. But we’ll talk
Speaker 10 1:47:14
to one of them. Anytime you want. Put some together. Maybe if you want to converse about it. If so then we can arrange ourselves.
Speaker 1 1:47:22
Yeah. I mean, just by a display of sort of head nodding. Is everyone generally interested in that? I would expect? Yeah. So. Okay. It’s an adequate amount that Yeah, absolutely. If we had that opportunity, I think we jump at it greatly. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 1:47:43
You mentioned that this was the next step was, what a lot of next steps but eventually getting to the Planning and Zoning Commission, and then to the city council. So I guess my question is, what role does the historic preservation commission have in all this? Well, ultimately, when we annex it, and they want to designate the site, that would be your role. But as far as the land use plan that’s really planning commission City Council’s role. So we love your input, but we don’t need a recommendation, I guess.
Speaker 1 1:48:27
Great. Excellent. Thank you. Appreciate that. Let’s see running through the rest of the agenda. We do not have any prior business. So that leaves us with simply any comments from HPC. Commissioners, anyone else have something they’d like to add, Mr. Commissioner Jacoby,
Speaker 5 1:48:47
at the risk of meeting the meeting the meeting longer. We, over the last half year, we talked about code revisions. And we did. We’ve talked a little bit on the side about the conservation overlay that the historic east side is trying to put forward. And I did mention that it’s been difficult to practically use. Well, the historic east side is pursuing a conservation overlay. And now they fit the current roadblock. And I wasn’t at the meeting, but I’ve gotten some input and some folks here Where is they have to come up with a plan check fee of $2,250 on top of money that they’ve already acquired to send mailers to 700 residences to notify them of the plan to go forward with a conservation overlay. Now the overlay plan has been on the books for 26 years and it’s never been used and this is what I was saying this is making it unusable the this they’re gonna go forward to city council is the plan and ask for the fee waiver. But that’s solving the problem. Maybe if City Council agrees. For the east side, we need to fix the conservation overlay, I think. So I was thinking, I would like to make a motion that we recommend to modify not the city code, let me back up the city code, talks about development to a large degree, it doesn’t talk about not developing. You know, that’s not what codes about. And so it set up, it mentions in many places that 501 C threes get exemptions, but neighborhoods aren’t 501 C threes. And what unfortunately, we don’t fit in under an umbrella organization. And there are also exemptions for affordable housing. But there’s there’s no mention for a way for historic neighborhoods to move forward here. So I would like to make a motion that we recommend to modify the city code. While we’re talking about redlining and changing the other code, make a recommendation to modify city code to allow the planning director to also be able to waive the plan check fee for city designated neighborhood groups that are in good standing, that have no regular sources of income, such as homeowners associations, because the east side, the west side, most of the older neighborhoods that could uses have no source of regular income. And this is not practical for them to use. So I think if we could get that added to the code, now I the code, I looked at the fee section, and it talks about, again, 501, C threes and whatnot. It says that commercial structures may not be eligible, talking about structures for building, but may be eligible when other provision in under other provisions of this code, if we put this in just the conservation overlay portion of the code, that the director has the authority to waive that fee, it wouldn’t be much more approachable for multiple neighborhoods.
Speaker 1 1:52:13
So what I would suggest, because I don’t think this particular point of the agenda is appropriate for that is that we talked about potentially putting that on the agenda for next month’s discussion so that staff can, that when he’s fine, have a little bit of a educated response. And we have time think about it right into his time for debate and so on. So I don’t have any problem doing that.
Speaker 5 1:52:38
That would be great. I would be happy with that. And one point to think about also is i should i recuse myself my vote in such a motion. Because I am working with the Eastside neighborhood to get this approved. But we are working through a different pathway we wouldn’t be using the code is going to take a while to change in the neighborhood doesn’t want to wait, and they’re gonna go to city council. So should I be recusing myself in the vote? I don’t think so. But I leave that up to you. And I’ll go by everyone else’s judgment on that. But we can talk about it the next time you
Speaker 1 1:53:14
put on the agenda for next my gut reaction would be no because it’s really just a discussion that the HPC is having about whether or not we think that as a commission, we want to make a recommendation to somebody else who’s going to have to act on us because we don’t have the power to do it in the first place. Right.
Unknown Speaker 1:53:26
Okay, great. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 1:53:33
Any other Commissioner comments? No. Okay. Thank you all. We do not have a city council rep here with us tonight. So that leaves us with a motion to adjourn. Moved by Commissioner Jacoby and seconded by Commissioner Norton. All those in favor of adjournment? please say aye. Aye. We are adjourned. Thank you
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