Water Board Meeting – November 2022
Note: The following is the output of transcribing from a video recording. Although the transcription, which was done with software, is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or [software] transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the meeting, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
Read along below:
Unknown Speaker 0:00
All right. I’m gonna call the meeting to order.
Unknown Speaker 0:05
This roll call. Yes, Alison Gould here Tom duster.
Unknown Speaker 0:12
Either Scott Bullock here. Roger lane here. Can you send your last salary here haven’t voted not here. Jason Elkins
Unknown Speaker 0:22
Bartlett here and
Unknown Speaker 0:26
McIntyre is here. And we have councilmember Martin with us here and against. Stop reeling with the sacred and left hand Water Conservancy District
Unknown Speaker 0:44
All right. Okay. Very good.
Unknown Speaker 0:48
Next approval previous month’s minutes. Are there any questions or comments about last month’s meeting?
Unknown Speaker 1:00
Chair I move to approve last month’s meeting minutes.
Unknown Speaker 1:04
All right. All in favor say aye. Aye.
Unknown Speaker 1:09
Okay. Very good.
Unknown Speaker 1:13
Waters staffs report sent us. I’ll have that. The full the same brain at lions today was 17 CFS, with 125 years historic average of 22 CFS, called the st. Green Creek is pleasant valley reservoir, admin 7822 with the priority date of June 1 1871. Called the main stem of the South Platte River is Riverside canal admin number 20 1031. With a priority date of August 1 1907.
Unknown Speaker 1:53
Real fresh reservoir button rock is it an elevation of 6,398.86 feet, or 15,946 acre feet. So we’re down approximately 250 acre feet
Unknown Speaker 2:11
in reservoirs at an elevation of 26.1 feet, or 11,387 acre feet down approximately 1300 acre feet.
Unknown Speaker 2:22
And that reservoir is releasing five and a half CFS on November 1, St. Vrain. Creek basin storage was at 68%. And I think that’s all I have for the water status report. Any comments?
Unknown Speaker 2:40
Awesome. How low is that in comparison?
Unknown Speaker 2:45
How long has been around in comparison to yours. So it’s actually probably pretty, pretty high compared to the five year average.
Unknown Speaker 2:57
But I’m, if you looked at a longer term average, and maybe a four year average, it’s pretty close. The goal is always to not have to start releasing total number first. And so we’re releasing, we’re passing the river plus releasing out of storage whenever the water treatment plant needs. And our winter demands have stayed pretty consistent for the last 20 years. So for that’s exactly where we wanted to be full on November 1 and starting to spill are starting to release out of storage.
Unknown Speaker 3:35
So much I’m not sure if I understand the question.
Unknown Speaker 3:41
Well, I think what you’re asking is, so we have to pass the river, whatever it is whatever accounting tells us the demand that the plant is taking. That is the amount we have to take out of storage. So in other words, I think we’ve got if I so in other words we’ve got 17 CFS going out.
Unknown Speaker 4:04
About 12 CFS is coming in at about five CFS is going out of storage. So I guess another way would be saying we’re kind of bypassing vehicles with 12 CFS. Gotcha. So 1717 going out of out of the restaurant is the same set of teams. The first thing in mind is the reference. So the antlions you have to cut contribution to the cell separate and it just so happens in South St rain is probably yielding about five CFS. So there just happens to be that the five CFS that the South is doing to us is equivalent to what the water treatment plants are taking. So even though we’re taking more water at Longmont reservoir with the plants don’t use it returns back to the sacred Creek and it joins back up with the sound same brain before it gets recorded in lions. So it’s some
Unknown Speaker 5:00
What coincidental were those two numbers
Unknown Speaker 5:05
CW CV and
Unknown Speaker 5:07
Unknown Speaker 5:23
Unknown Speaker 5:25
Unknown Speaker 5:27
Unknown Speaker 5:31
Scott, yes. All right.
Unknown Speaker 5:36
I think you’re on right. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 5:39
Unknown Speaker 5:44
I’m going to be talking to you today about sacred Lands and Water Conservancy districts, pilot weather modification programs. Thank you very much for having
Unknown Speaker 5:54
me what a resource engineer with the district’s
Unknown Speaker 5:58
just been there about a year and a half a little bit over
Unknown Speaker 6:04
a year. I’ll be going through some high level physics of cloud seeding and weather modification. I’ll be using the term clouds and weather modification fairly interchangeably. Talking about how the program up typically operates over some kind of questions that folks have highlights and other programs in Colorado and then focusing on our program that the districts
Unknown Speaker 6:31
like to do teaching that just speaker views sure seats. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 6:36
Unknown Speaker 6:41
Little One screams
Unknown Speaker 6:44
Unknown Speaker 6:48
I think click on that. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 6:58
This, you got started.
Unknown Speaker 7:04
So let’s see if I can go back alone. And
Unknown Speaker 7:09
this is what we all learned in kindergarten, probably. Snow comes from field person watering clouds, ice crystals congregating form snowfall, or snowflakes that get bigger and we have to actually follow this. So that first point there, water freezing is something I want to dig into a little bit more because as it turns out, water doesn’t really like to freeze. It’s an endothermic process, it takes energy to make water freeze. And so that means water can exist in liquid form below freezing temperatures is familiar with this. I’m sure lakes frozen lakes have supercooled sub freezing water below the below the ice. The same thing happens in the clouds in winter storms. water or water molecules can exist in liquid form at temperatures as low as negative 15 degrees Celsius.
Unknown Speaker 7:59
One way to speed the process of squeezing and subsequent snowflake formation is to add a seeding agent or nucleation agents. So that it could be a number of things. There’s dust particles and pollen, naturally occurring ones pollution and smog can contribute coincidental manipulating agents. And then we can also have intentionally seeking agents. And that’s what we’re talking about today with hydrazine.
Unknown Speaker 8:25
Unknown Speaker 8:28
silver iodide as a cloud seeding agent. It’s a very small molecule. And it’s similar to water molecules, similar molecular structure and also has a similar polarity to learn molecules, so it functions really well. And what it does is it makes it speeds up that freezing process. It allows sites for water molecules to freeze onto and also allows the temperature which freezing itself like formation can allows it somewhat snowflake formation to happen at a higher temperature than it might otherwise basically.
Unknown Speaker 9:03
Unknown Speaker 9:05
what that looks like in operation is silver iodide can be added to lunch or winter storms, winter clouds, either through planes, or through ground mounted generators. There are a few programs or at least one program in Colorado that uses planes ours won’t ours will use ground mounted generators and they use a burn propane to shoot silver iodide up into clouds. They rely on the word graphic effects so absurd conditions essentially where the mountains cause the air to be pushed up high in the atmosphere and they have that winds that Eric
Unknown Speaker 9:42
helps the silver iodide mix up into the clouds really well and increase the snowfall that would otherwise not occur.
Unknown Speaker 9:53
This is a good example of a generator our generators will be mounted on trailers this is just shows can
Unknown Speaker 10:00
The basic elements, you see the propane tanks, it’s silver iodide. It’s mixed in with acetate, acetone rather and a tank. And then there’s a burner there. These generators are remotely operated. So there’s cellular telemetry that allows them to be controlled from a desktop.
Unknown Speaker 10:21
Couple of questions that
Unknown Speaker 10:24
and talking about this, I’ve seen this over and over again. So we’ll go through them one by one. The first one is does cloud seeding really work? And it’s a good question, because with cloud seeding, you’re adding these very small particles across a really wide range, whole watershed in our case, and it’s hard to tell how much additional snow actually fell because of that process.
Unknown Speaker 10:51
There are a lot of studies in the process has been used in Colorado, specifically since the 70s. So it’s a commonly used process. There’s a lot of work that has been done looking at patients that have been seen see it versus basins that haven’t been seated and comparing the resulting snowpack and runoff from those two that indicate that cloud seeding can produce between five and 10, or maybe even 12%, and additional runoff from
Unknown Speaker 11:18
from the actual seeding throughout the whole season. There is now some what some radar images that show clouds that have been seeded actually having greater precipitation and clouds that happens. So the technology is starting to catch up to show what many cloud seeding operators have known intuitively that the process does work.
Unknown Speaker 11:42
It is still hard to measure exactly how much snow we are producing.
Unknown Speaker 11:50
This next question, so if it does work, then are you taking water or snow from one area.
Unknown Speaker 11:57
And, you know, if a storm is coming through and you’re pulling the extra snow from it, would that snow have eventually falling somewhere else and I moved since the robbing Peter to pay Paul, I’m taking in our case, maybe snow that might have fallen on the west slope of Colorado away from them. And the reality is the amount of precipitation that falls in a winter storm is only about 10% of the total moisture in the clouds, I would see an increases so far, by about 1% of that 10% or 10% of that 10% is only 1% total. So there’s still 89% of the moisture left in iCloud to produce no downwind. So
Unknown Speaker 12:39
the thought is you are taking a little bit of water out of the clouds. But in the context of how much water is available, it’s really a drop in the bucket.
Unknown Speaker 12:49
And then there’s certainly some concern or some thought about this, the notion of adding that chemical into nature isn’t safe. And
Unknown Speaker 12:59
there’s a couple one, the chemical itself, silver and iodide, women were interested in the environment and teenagers into elemental silver and iodine. Iodine is something that we use on our skin, it’s naturally occurring in nature. And it’s relatively inert. Silver is also very inert, it doesn’t really travel very far. Once it melts into the soil, it just, it’s combined with the soil and is undetectable based on background soil levels, silver levels in the soil, we’ve got a lot of silver in our area, too. And so the concentrations that we are adding into the watershed are so so tiny, if you consider dispersing about two pounds of silver iodide across the whole watershed. It’s really the only way you can protect a quantitation at any measurable amounts of silver is in the freshly fallen snow with really advanced Miss mass spectrometers. So it’s really hard to detect a right away and as soon as the snow melts, it’s below the background levels that occur. So we’re the district police are convinced that a safe process and we’re also convinced that it works and we’re excited to see what we can make happen. Yes. What about the carbon footprint? Great question.
Unknown Speaker 14:24
Burning propane. Yeah, so there is a carbon footprint associated with it. And any any idea of the scale, and it was like,
Unknown Speaker 14:33
like five vehicle miles traveled for a camper. I
Unknown Speaker 14:38
don’t know this, the details. They aren’t super large. It’s not not a huge amount of propane. That’s good throughout the year. And one thing I should have mentioned with talking about operations, we’re only going to see winter storms that have the right conditions for us. So it’s not like we’re going to be operating this cloud seeding all the time. It’s only
Unknown Speaker 15:00
When there’s the right storm coming through that will be turning the units on. And you know, storms will only last for less than a day or a day or something. You’re like burning propane for a day. And
Unknown Speaker 15:13
like, yeah, how many cubic feet and protein protein that is? You know, I don’t know, to be honest with you. But that’s a great question. And that’s something I think would be helpful information for us to think about moving forward. Is there a way that we want to offset that carbon footprint somehow it’s just to be recognizing that we are not the only person who’s ever going to ask that question. Exactly. Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s a good thing to be considering for sure.
Unknown Speaker 15:39
And thank you for interrupting me, please stop me with any other questions you guys have. I’m happy to
Unknown Speaker 15:45
answer them as we go. Yes. So if this is kind of a long term plan, and maybe it’s not tactical after one year, at what point to be, like, also a great question. So that notion of if we’re doing this over 40 years, I think, eventually accumulate in the environment to be detectable. And I don’t really edge Exactly.
Unknown Speaker 16:10
Very have the this, this map here shows programs that have been operating in Colorado, many of these programs, I think the first program was started in Vail back in the 70s. I don’t know if they’re starting to see, you know, over the course of
Unknown Speaker 16:26
4050 years, that they’re starting to see any accumulation.
Unknown Speaker 16:31
But at some something that I think we want to be thinking about looking forward and working to be taking good measurement data now and I prepared it as we progress with the program. Yeah, thank you.
Unknown Speaker 16:47
So yeah, this map shows the programs in Colorado, there are seven permitted programs in Colorado, ours is the eighth. You might notice from this map, all of the permits are on the west slope. So our programs, the first one on the front range, there are between 102 100 Different hydrogen generators involved in all these programs. That’s all those little green dots up there. So you can see they’re scattered kind of throughout the states, but all on the west. So we’ve been in conversation with the Colorado Water Conservation Board, about starting a program in our area. And the size of our basin makes it a good candidate to pilot this program, and to see kind of what the level of interest is, and see what
Unknown Speaker 17:36
my questions come up to see how effective we are at seeding clouds that are moving from the east to the west. So our program will consist of two remotely operated generators, you can see him located up there and alternated on those two sites and a little bit, we’re estimating with these two generators, maybe 1000 to 4000 acre foot increasing on up. And we’re contracting with the North American weather consulting groups that are based out of Salt Lake City. They operate the program in Gunnison, and I believe one over in the Grand Lake area as well. They’ve been seeding, they’ve been doing weather modification for many, many years, I believe they have like 40 years of experience.
Unknown Speaker 18:25
So those two sites, one is located on the sacred and supply canals. So that’s a Northern Water property, just east of lions, the lions crack crack, trash track location, you guys are familiar with that at all.
Unknown Speaker 18:40
And the other so super thankful to Northern as well as the head of this company, they’re allowing us to use their property, at no costs, highly this company we’re going to is agreed to let us locate a generator at foothills reservoir. These two locations are going to right at the foothills and we’ll hopefully that the thought is that they as
Unknown Speaker 19:03
as storms come from the east to the west, when it hits those mountains and really start things that are that autographic effectively drives the winds up into the atmosphere. So metal seating that these two locations will allow for good dispersion of so right into the atmosphere.
Unknown Speaker 19:22
So these generators are only from storms that come from east to the west. Yeah, that’s what we’re targeting with this program. Is there any thought to put generators further to the west? So that is
Unknown Speaker 19:33
not a meteorologist? Those are those storms will happen very frequently. Yeah, exactly. So yes. And yes.
Unknown Speaker 19:43
I’ll go through a couple examples storms that I’ll circle back. So this is a model that simulates who is built to simulate a pollution distribution, but it’s can be used to simulate sobriety distribution based on several storms.
Unknown Speaker 20:00
and these are past storms. So you know, each storm is going to be
Unknown Speaker 20:04
the type of storms that we would like to see. And you can get a sense for what the distribution of the housing agent would be over the basin. And different storm conditions will lead to different, basically different areas where we will impact. And so that will determine what started to secede and what songs we don’t choose to see. This also is planting the seed for future expansion of this program, looking at, if we had generators located at different locations, and you could capture, you could see some areas depending on the store, if our target areas, the st. Ray basin, if we have generators located further to the north further to the south. And we would have more opportunities to seek storage that would impact us. And with our existing generators, we’d also have the potential to see in other areas if there’s other partners who are interested in joining us in the future.
Unknown Speaker 21:02
So I’ll just read through,
Unknown Speaker 21:04
you can see some stronger winds can really make a very large impacted area, the intensity of impact might be smaller,
Unknown Speaker 21:15
just kind of having these pictures and
Unknown Speaker 21:19
you can see you know, this is probably a storm that we wouldn’t see. But from that location, the opportunity to see a large areas, certainly
Unknown Speaker 21:32
Unknown Speaker 21:34
circulars thrown there. And suddenly storm seed on the west side of the divide. And so there’s talking about partnering existing programs on the western side of the divide, to share generators, and to Jason’s point on potentially installing generators closer to the divide that we can that both programs can use. So if storms are coming from west to east, we could benefit from them as East West, they could benefit from that. And so we can reduce our operating costs by sharing that same.
Unknown Speaker 22:06
So this is the type of song that would have
Unknown Speaker 22:09
lots of impact all across.
Unknown Speaker 22:14
So the timeline for this program, and we just got our permit awarded on November 15. And we are planning to install it next week
Unknown Speaker 22:23
and begin operations in summer. Once the operation is complete in April, we’ll get a report for how much receded that started up receded and expectation or estimation of how much additional runoff was created and snowpack and runoff was created from from the operations.
Unknown Speaker 22:46
Part of how that is calculated is using sites that are so these are all the yellow dots, sorry, the yellow boxes up there are certain sites. And so there are control sites. And there are target sites. This is an example of venison program. And lettered sites of control sites, a number of sites out there the target sites. So seeding operation happen around the target sites and storms that came through during the snowfall from those storms was compared to the two locations. What the difference.
Unknown Speaker 23:23
As you can imagine, this isn’t the most perfect method, it’s kind of hard to do a controlled study when you want to see the entire basin because a storm is going to impact that basin potentially slightly differently based next to it. One of the tools that I’m really excited about that I’ll talk about a little bit later is the airborne. So observation flights using light plane mounted LIDAR to collect snowpack data, and various potential to use data that’s going to be flown over the Northern Front Range to see just to see if there’s any difference that we can detect using that method from our area of interest versus adjacent areas as well.
Unknown Speaker 24:05
So the customer has paid program, the operational costs are just under $50,000. And the district is contributing 43 of that dilepton Ditch company is actually chipping in $6,000. So we’re really thankful to them. And then the CW CB is going to be purchasing the equipment, so they will be owners of the generators, and that those costs are just
Unknown Speaker 24:28
so total costs are just under $140,000 for operating two generators, as we evaluate the program if it works well. And if there’s opportunity to expand the generators, the number of generators in the future, then you know, operation costs will likely increase moving forward. So we would certainly invite the district or sorry the city to consider joining us in this effort moving forward as you guys are putting your budget together. Happy to have you
Unknown Speaker 25:00
more detailed conversations about what we estimate that might look like.
Unknown Speaker 25:04
But we could see full program build out that five generators total. So three located on this side of the divide and two located on the other, the other side of the divide, and then kind of correspond operational costs. A big chunk of the operation costs are for the Stafford meteorologists to be evaluating storms. And so there’s an economy of scale that as you add more aerators, you know, that should be costing, the operation costs should increase.
Unknown Speaker 25:37
And the permit area, so the permit is actually held by our consultant, American Water consultants. And when they applied for the permit, they decided to make it to ask for the option to expand from Larimer County all the way down to teller County. So there’s actually quite a large area that this program could expand it to the target area is the same room. And so we’re going to be starting with the same way. But it allows us a lot of flexibility moving forward, as we have conversations with folks throughout our basin, as well as the joists, adjacent patients, if there’s interest in seating north and south of us, we can do that with existing firms that we have to go get a new permanent, which is something I’m really excited about. I’m really curious to see how this evolves moving forward and grows in northern northern waters, certainly interested in what we’re doing. And
Unknown Speaker 26:36
we’re curious to see what level of interest rates City Florida folks might have? How long is it for them, it’s that five year permit. So we’ve got kind of five years to see what we can do figure out how it works in our area, and then consider how we might want to do
Unknown Speaker 26:57
it quickly to circle back to those airborne snow observatory flights.
Unknown Speaker 27:02
I don’t know if you guys are familiar with this or not. If you’ve seen this, it’s a newer technology was developed in NASA Jet Propulsion Lab and over the past maybe five or 10 years is split off its own company to actually operationalize the technology. And it started to grow in an interest over Colorado, throughout Colorado over the past two to five years. So last year, there was a large push and a large Colorado water plane grant through the Colorado Water Conservation Board to collect snow free data over a large chunk of the state that didn’t have so big data. So the way that this technology works is there’s initial flight captures the ground elevation. And then you can you can fly subsequent snow flights or when there’s snow on the ground. And then you can take the elevation of the snowpack and subtract it from the elevation terrain to determine snow depth. And that is coupled with existing SNOTEL sites as well as snow courses that serve in snow water equivalent from those flights. There’s typically two flights that occur one in April and capture peak snowpack and one in May to capture runoff and especially like higher elevation snowpack and what’s remaining. There’s really, really cool case studies. Underwater use this technology. They flew the Blue River Basin above Dominus word, and a year that SNOTEL sites were showing that there really wasn’t a lot of snowpack left on the airplane shows observation flights
Unknown Speaker 28:39
indicated that there was still a lot of snowpack remaining up high in the basin. So they were alive. But they changed their operations. Instead of holding water backing down, they were able to make additional releases to create room for the setup is coming. And we’re able to get a lot more efficiency out of our system that year. The converse is also true, there’s been some some areas where the SNOTEL data is showing that there’s still a decent setback. And then the flights show that there’s actually a lot less snowpack remaining in the basin. And so you can operate your system differently, projecting loads of water supplies and
Unknown Speaker 29:16
one of the key things that this data provides is really that higher elevation and snow data SNOTEL sites are typically 10,000 feet about snowpack exists all the way up to 14,000 feet, some of our faces. So it’s we don’t know a lot about how snow accumulates and some of those upper areas anecdotally we do but this provides really high resolution it’s 30 by 30 meter spatial distance and it gets like half centimeter vertical accuracy. So really high, highly precise data on a very discrete spatial scale.
Unknown Speaker 29:55
This project is also the future funding of this the state
Unknown Speaker 30:00
is looking at the color of water water conservation or is looking at taking over that financial burden of vision moving forward, the process that might come in and the pace that that might happen that is maybe not fast enough to make sure that we are consistently getting the place that we want. The Northern Front rain, so that kind of light blue on the map, from Clear Creek basin all the way through the pooter is being funded the fights this year, this upcoming year for the 23 fights. Really a cool story of folks all across the Northern Front Range Northern Water Conservancy District.
Unknown Speaker 30:38
Greeley, Fort Collins, Boulder, golden Thornton, Westminster, I think have all contributed funding for to make sure those fights happen. And that funding was leveraged against the WS RF grant through the South Platte basin roundtable to ensure that we can get our fights our snow, snow on fire this year. So I’m really excited about that. Thinking now into 2024, the Colorado Water Conservation Board looks like they’re going to approve a larger water projects or projects bill, just direction.
Unknown Speaker 31:16
But so there’ll be they’ll be adding more money towards this program. But it’s not quite enough to cover all of the flight costs. So it’s looking like in order to ensure that we have flights in 2024 funds, we all need to raise money again, or figure out some other path. So another thing for the city to consider in their budget moving forward is, is the status, something that might be of value? And is there some contribution that are being made, and again, happy to talk through the details?
Unknown Speaker 31:48
As we move forward?
Unknown Speaker 31:50
That’s all I have for you today. Thank you very much for letting me come talk to you about this stuff. And happy happy to answer any questions you may have. got. I got one. You’re looking for partners, funding partners, usually the results of what you’re doing. Really important to them. Yes. So when you anticipate
Unknown Speaker 32:13
some information coming out on how successful or not successful this program? That’s a great question. So we are anticipating a report from the weather modification program in June timeframe.
Unknown Speaker 32:27
I think we’ll have some anecdotal sense of how often we see it and what storms were favorable and not then kind of how long and maybe some rough estimates from the from that from our consultants, but the final report won’t be available until about June.
Unknown Speaker 32:44
Got a question for Scott.
Unknown Speaker 32:48
Yeah, I have a question. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So um, can you tell us a little bit more about the kind of remote generators? I mean, yeah, kind of like anticipating, you mentioned some combustible materials, you know, propane, propane, and things like that be used, whether open flames are their heat sources, for example. So are you at all concerned about operating those things remotely, and given the circumstances that we all find ourselves in, of course, these days with kind of the Lewisville fire, of course, freshly in our minds, perhaps? Thank you. That’s a great question. I know that remote generators and even manual generators have been used extensively throughout the state. I’m not aware of any issues with those. But I do think that is really pertinent question. And one, I think the marshal fire has opened up all of our eyes to the really
Unknown Speaker 33:45
the damage that something going right can cause and so certainly, I think in the design of the generators, I will have what we try them out to it. And so I think they’re fairly contained. So I don’t anticipate anything being
Unknown Speaker 34:01
you know, I think they’re, from what I understand I’m curious actual seat and see the setup, because I haven’t seen the exact setup yet. But I’m, I’m thinking they’re going to be pretty safe. But that’s something that we’ll be keeping an eye on for sure.
Unknown Speaker 34:17
Yeah, I mean, I would, you know, as a humble suggestion, just from a liability perspective, you may want to have a kind of a safe safety management process in place where my you at the very least, points of contact and some type of also remote system that monitors for any kind of
Unknown Speaker 34:39
fire, etcetera, yes. From you. So that, you know, at least you’ve crossed your T’s and dotting your eyes. Right here. I really appreciate that.
Unknown Speaker 34:51
Unknown Speaker 34:54
Scott, thanks for your time. Yeah, thank you very much.
Unknown Speaker 35:00
Unknown Speaker 35:04
Unknown Speaker 35:16
development activity, like there’s nothing, report there. So
Unknown Speaker 35:23
let’s get into the general business.
Unknown Speaker 35:29
Unknown Speaker 35:32
Unknown Speaker 35:36
Unknown Speaker 35:38
Unknown Speaker 35:40
show no. Sounds Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 35:44
I just want to if I get in, introduce it just real quickly, one of the things we’ve come to soar and talking about our update our water efficiency master plan, kind of focus on we’re trying to do today is in the waterboard Council draft house communication. We included in the packet are some specific programs, we wrote the Water Board to take a quick look at what we’re really asking.
Unknown Speaker 36:14
We’re not making any decisions today on what we will or won’t have in our updated water efficiency master plan to truly process, we want the process to determine that as we go through it, including input from the public, or
Unknown Speaker 36:34
pretty robust input process. But there’s some of the specific programs, what we’re asking for is, do you agree, we’re proposing a few programs that we will expressly evaluate
Unknown Speaker 36:52
and come back with a recommendation? So that’s really what we’re asking today is, are you okay with us, including that in the evaluation process? And then the decision whether to do it or not?
Unknown Speaker 37:06
You know, one, one example is
Unknown Speaker 37:10
Unknown Speaker 37:13
Probably nothing. In all the years I’ve been doing this,
Unknown Speaker 37:17
I get more input on and people see more, is what you see when you drive down.
Unknown Speaker 37:25
That know everybody has an opinion
Unknown Speaker 37:29
on it. So do we want to set it out? Or
Unknown Speaker 37:34
can they come back with a recommendation? So hope both is gonna give you kind of a rundown of where we are right now? With the update?
Unknown Speaker 37:46
Unknown Speaker 37:48
Let’s take a thank you. Oh, thank you. So we have we’re on a schedule to meet at a council study session in December on December 14, where we’ll present our council communications. And so we wanted to get you all feedback before we go to council, so that we can have either your support and or comments on the five main projects or programs that we’re proposing study in our update. So first and foremost, we would like to know if you approve and moving in the direction of creating more aggressive water conservation goals driven by climate change data. So currently, our our goal is a 10% reduction of our 2048 projected build out demand. We believe that we’re already meeting this and that we need this on average. And so we’re proposing an increase
Unknown Speaker 38:43
in our conservation, only reduction, what are using as an increase? Yes. Increasing goal reduction in use? Yes.
Unknown Speaker 38:55
Yeah, so an example might be moving to a 15 to 20% reduction in basements.
Unknown Speaker 39:05
Unknown Speaker 39:09
chapter seven was reached over what period of time and the idea of
Unknown Speaker 39:15
point A to point B that we got to 10%.
Unknown Speaker 39:21
I don’t think we really have. So the short answers is from when we set that goal in 2003. To today
Unknown Speaker 39:30
we’ll say about a 20 year period
Unknown Speaker 39:34
with you in the past 20 years. We believe we’ve approximately 10% or conservation savings goal.
Unknown Speaker 39:46
So to put it in a numbers
Unknown Speaker 39:50
are projected use for in 2048 is 35,000.
Unknown Speaker 39:57
At our projected demand, build out use that
Unknown Speaker 40:00
We say that we should reduce that projected demand by 10% to be 3500 acre feet, less than that. And we believe that we’re already projected to not need that. 3500. So I’m going to say where I would go. Exactly if the farmer
Unknown Speaker 40:24
for many continues to build.
Unknown Speaker 40:30
We’ve already realized already realized that the lowered demand today, we would have 3500 acre feet more demand
Unknown Speaker 40:41
than had we not had a water conservation program.
Unknown Speaker 40:46
Unknown Speaker 40:49
And that, again, is over a 20 year period.
Unknown Speaker 40:58
Question was, so if you want another, say, 5%?
Unknown Speaker 41:03
Yeah, I would assume you’d look at a time period
Unknown Speaker 41:09
that is coincident with
Unknown Speaker 41:12
you looking at five or 10, year five or 20 years or
Unknown Speaker 41:21
24, which is that? I know, where else was it sailor? What year was that? That’s what
Unknown Speaker 41:30
I bet your right question I’m gonna ask all really can because I
Unknown Speaker 41:35
have been asked this before. But
Unknown Speaker 41:40
we have made changes in the land use code and are contemplating more changes in the land use code, all of which
Unknown Speaker 41:51
yields greater population density than we had before, which in turn would lead a to a larger population
Unknown Speaker 42:00
over the years, so the population in 2048 is not the same as the populates the projected population in
Unknown Speaker 42:12
- So my question is, do you change the population projections?
Unknown Speaker 42:21
So no, we’ve we’ve left?
Unknown Speaker 42:26
Our last future water demand evaluation was based upon envision long run and the build out at about 120,000 fluctuation.
Unknown Speaker 42:41
Unknown Speaker 42:43
Unknown Speaker 42:45
10% savings, we’ll do that.
Unknown Speaker 42:51
If we if we increase density, then obviously that will increase
Unknown Speaker 42:58
increase density already.
Unknown Speaker 43:01
We have Yes. From the 2003. At that time, it was long, more comprehensive. And
Unknown Speaker 43:12
that also for the population was gonna be 104,000. Yeah. So from 2016 additionally increased. Yeah. And we have not that that is not in our future.
Unknown Speaker 43:24
Yeah. Okay. So question number two, this was a tape because the last time you and I talked about it, and the last time I talked to Harold about it.
Unknown Speaker 43:36
The answer I got was, I think I’ll just take care of it. You don’t need counsel to act.
Unknown Speaker 43:44
Does counsel need to act? You need explicit, explicit direction?
Unknown Speaker 43:51
To change the number you’re projecting to different populations and rolled out now?
Unknown Speaker 44:00
We don’t we would need
Unknown Speaker 44:06
we try to follow the comprehensive planning process. And to be honest, I know planning department has told us they’re in the process of
Unknown Speaker 44:18
Unknown Speaker 44:22
And whatever that amends to them will come in and change that.
Unknown Speaker 44:29
We also can look at
Unknown Speaker 44:32
Unknown Speaker 44:33
scenario. We don’t have to wait to send everybody as well. Right. And and that’s my question because it seems to me that the planners need to be informed by an anticipated water supply in terms of what they decided to do. So we’re getting some chicken and egg thing going on here. The I would rather not have
Unknown Speaker 45:04
Interesting questions, it is
Unknown Speaker 45:10
just a thought to Marsha the way I would,
Unknown Speaker 45:15
my thought would be that we would reach goals, some type of a goal based on
Unknown Speaker 45:23
1000 People from 10,000.
Unknown Speaker 45:26
And then however the population goes, we have a number that we’re driving towards a usage number, and another 10,000 that we didn’t expect.
Unknown Speaker 45:39
Let that drive it. And if you understand what I’m saying,
Unknown Speaker 45:43
I understand what you’re saying. But it seems like a very
Unknown Speaker 45:50
Douglas County parkeri kind of approach in the sense that
Unknown Speaker 45:56
you’re taking a proven risk of coming up short, if you do it that way. Whereas you can.
Unknown Speaker 46:04
We can’t control the population. But we can control other things, like, permits issue.
Unknown Speaker 46:13
Yeah, how much change who makes the land use go, who may have to say stop?
Unknown Speaker 46:21
You know, we may need to increase our capacity to bottle water again.
Unknown Speaker 46:28
So if if we, if we had a targeted number that we’re shooting for, it just seems it seems like
Unknown Speaker 46:37
you know, which, what how many controls we need to apply?
Unknown Speaker 46:44
As opposed to letting
Unknown Speaker 46:46
letting the populations move freely? And then do what are you saying? I’m not saying really, I’m just saying
Unknown Speaker 46:56
you will plan for a certain population? Yeah. Just use the word build out? Yeah. And I think a lot of things are derived around a build out No.
Unknown Speaker 47:08
And to me, that’s where I would come from,
Unknown Speaker 47:12
where we started to build out other things flow from as far as Are you sure, whatever you will, but that’s what I’ve seen roaring, changing target, it’s just not being acknowledged in this process.
Unknown Speaker 47:27
Jump in here.
Unknown Speaker 47:31
Not a great moment, but maybe it’ll help.
Unknown Speaker 47:37
Um, it seems to me like a lot of what we’re discussing is definitions of conservation. And when I look at this, this water efficiency master when it’s called the efficiency master, as a subtitle of conservation
Unknown Speaker 47:55
program. So those are some different concepts. And I think that they have different implicit goals. And so I guess I would suggest that we first before you because I think it’s relevant to what we’re saying here is we figure out and come to a common understanding what we mean, the first place before returning to targets. Because wildlife conservation is great. If water conservation is synonymous with efficiency, as I understand it, I’m not sure I’m super jazzed about that. But my definition may be totally wildly different from your essence. So I guess I would suggest that we really define these terms before we start trying to come up with conversion percentages, you
Unknown Speaker 48:44
know, yeah, that’s great. And, and just to reiterate, these are ideas that we’re asking if we should study. So we’re not saying like, Hey, we’re gonna assign this to you guys approved, we’re saying like, Hey, we’re gonna ask our consultant that we wire to see if this makes sense. And they’re gonna work with our planning department and say, Hey, what’s up agenda biller? Does this make sense? They’re going to coordinate all of these things. But I do think that there’s tremendous value and figuring out defining those days. Totally. Thomas, I saw your hand up.
Unknown Speaker 49:21
Yeah, I have a I have a question for him, actually. So it’s not so much a question. Maybe just like a
Unknown Speaker 49:29
just kind of want to point out like a little bit of a distinction, I guess. So. I mean, from this point forward, I feel like we have a lot of opportunity to kind of manage water use in the growth that comes in the future. Right. And so, so that, obviously, we have a lot more kind of like holdover, you know, to be able to kind of, you know, manage that, that growth in the water use that comes from that growth, using things like density and you know, just
Unknown Speaker 50:00
sizes of yards and all that kind of stuff, that the things that I guess I’m kind of seeing the opportunity within is the existing infrastructure. So I mean, in your kind of list here, you’ve got things like Leak Detection and repair, and those types of things. And I guess I’m just kind of curious about maybe your thoughts about kind of like that most of the opportunity in my, in my view, it seems like most of the opportunity to improve efficiency into the future actually comes with from existing infrastructure relative to something that we build in the future. And so I wonder whether we already kind of have a little bit like the answer in a way in our in our hands, because the things that we can improve the most already exist. And so whether the discussion about what the future holds, is maybe not as important as what we can do to improve efficiency in the infrastructure that exists.
Unknown Speaker 50:57
Sure, I see where you’re coming from on this. And you might be jumping ahead a little bit on one of our different points. But one of the one of the main things that’s really important for our staff that we study is applying the growing water smart ones. And if you all remember, this is the seminar that we have brought that Ken and I attended earlier this year. And basically, it’s just changing the way that we think about planning and developing our city was water efficiency, and I’m going to use them interchangeably, but they’re not water efficiency lens in all new developments. And so that would require us to be more involved in the planning department development
Unknown Speaker 51:38
Unknown Speaker 51:40
process, but also to make sure that the way that we move forward as a city is outlined sustainably. So along those lines, we’re going to be proposing that we take a deeper dive into our code and our design standards. And then we update our code and design standards so that all of our new development moving forward is water efficient. That being said, we want to get that in place first, because we want to stop the bleeding, right? We want to fix the leak before we fix the water damage, right? So we want to make sure that we’re developing efficiently. That’s what we’re going to be focused on, on what I’m proposing that we focus on in this study. And then after that, then we can go back and look at our existing infrastructure. It’s not an either or because our existing infrastructure is important. Obviously, there’s a leak, we fix it. But
Unknown Speaker 52:37
if we don’t address our future development, and if we don’t develop
Unknown Speaker 52:43
it efficiently, then we’re always going to be retrofitted, which is not effective. So it’s more effective if we grow and focus on growing
Unknown Speaker 52:55
sustainably from start changing our codes and our design standards and our landscaping regulations. Those kinds of things before we do like our turf replacement, right? Because right now, we have it hurts I live in a brand new development. Everyone in my neighborhood is tearing our yards. And we did that in less than two years. Sounds stupid, right? Like we should not be putting in turf. And now the city is paying to take out this turf. So we’re going to be focusing on kind of changing the way that we develop before we go back to our system instruction. Students are doing for sure it’s great, but it’s also like silly like why didn’t we just do zero scaping in the front yards of crossbows because we didn’t have a time slice. Right?
Unknown Speaker 53:41
To play devil’s advocate, and I agree with you.
Unknown Speaker 53:45
You’re right, stop the bleeding, right. And argue concurrency instead of linear track. I know we don’t have the resources to do anything currently, right? Human resources to focus on it. But also point out that if we have well over 100,000 in population now that’s already developed, it was already there. The Delta of growing out over a period of 30 more years is relatively small. Absolutely. Or to the existing savings we could come up with with retrofitting, retrofitting existing infrastructure. Yeah, older county learned this and drove as on the planning commission, because we went out for new development. And somebody pointed out that, you know, trying to make all the new houses be more energy efficient, ignoring all the existing infrastructure that is completely energy inefficient.
Unknown Speaker 54:35
The scales heavily tipped towards what’s already there that can be reversed and retrofitted. Yeah. So
Unknown Speaker 54:41
that’s my devil’s advocate. Yeah. I appreciate the Yes, absolutely will not stop what we’re doing now. And actually, we’re, we’re jumping around a lot but
Unknown Speaker 54:52
that’s, that’s, yeah, that is continuing and you’re increasing the benefits that we already are
Unknown Speaker 55:00
Unknown Speaker 55:01
and focusing more on our vulnerable communities. So
Unknown Speaker 55:06
we’re not going to stop what we’re already doing. In fact, we want to do more.
Unknown Speaker 55:10
But, and we learned this from the CDC. So you might have heard that the
Unknown Speaker 55:16
Unknown Speaker 55:18
just got a bunch of funding to do residents to fund more turf replacement projects. And one of the people at cbcb said, I will fund in a heartbeat, someone who has codes, it’s going to stop the landscaping, before I find a brand new program that doesn’t have their ducks in a line. So if we don’t have our ducks in a row, like eventually we’re not, we’re gonna miss out a lot for opportunities.
Unknown Speaker 55:42
But Marsh I think, someday
Unknown Speaker 55:46
Oh, I always have
Unknown Speaker 55:50
we need to we need to get this corrected to the state legislature because a lot of the bleeding is in open in open space, existing open space, not open spaces with capital letters, button, non dwelling spaces in homeowners associations, and just lousy with turf, and we can’t stop that.
Unknown Speaker 56:15
Yes, you talked about this before. Yes. That’s a whole nother bear. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 56:22
If you don’t
Unknown Speaker 56:29
we’re interested in what you’re saying. Yeah. And to be honest with you back to where you started. I, I need to fully understand what are you asking us? Yes, that’s cloudy right now. But anyway, you? Yeah. I’m asking No, this is good. We’re asking for feedback. And we’re asking for direction. So for you to say, No, I don’t think you should increase your conservation goal. That’s great. That’s what you’re asking for? Yes. And do you think you should?
Unknown Speaker 56:57
Yeah. I love putting on the packet. So I would support all those holes. I would first news, just the lawyer need to have definitions. Yes. I love that. Before I say yes or no. But I read it, I found that very inspirational. That’s my person was
Unknown Speaker 57:18
someone else’s. So I guess what I would request passionate when it comes to whatever, engineer modeler, whoever you’re going to use, they’re gonna apply some sort of algorithm, model the scenario whatever to the answers they’re going to get. But if they’re not in alignment with what I view is conservation, or efficiency, or we all do, that answer is not going to be enough. Or it’s going to tell me something’s not what I interpreted us. So I guess my request would be a lot of us. I feel like it’s really, really inspiring. But a lot of its internal. Yeah, for sure. But I’d love to have broken down by the council’s make sure that they’re understanding.
Unknown Speaker 57:59
Well, the council goes knowing
Unknown Speaker 58:04
Unknown Speaker 58:08
the fact that we started discussion about the definition of two words that were in the same phrase, it seems to be that
Unknown Speaker 58:17
in terms of putting requirements on the consultants, that what you’d like to do is define some metric points. So it just in this kind of unstructured discussion, we have talked about losses in the distribution system, we have turned all that blue hot
Unknown Speaker 58:39
Unknown Speaker 58:41
Unknown Speaker 58:46
stuff losses, like evaporation from rates and golf courses and and from the sprinkler systems coming on throughout the day. And you know, that that kind of efficient use as opposed to efficient delivery. And then the conservation piece is in per capita consumption, which we’ve been addressing for a long time by giving people more efficient toilets, showerheads, faucets and stuff. And that I think, is probably since we have addressed in in the other stuff, the earlier the delivery of useless efforts much yet.
Unknown Speaker 59:28
Then then the
Unknown Speaker 59:31
you know, the per capita consumption is what we’ve been doing a good job for, as long as I’ve been paying any attention. And before that, because I you know, lived here for 10 years and gotten faucets in the mail. You know.
Unknown Speaker 59:48
So, you’ve been you’ve probably got a pretty high penetration of high efficiency fixtures inside homes.
Unknown Speaker 59:57
And and a lot of people
Unknown Speaker 1:00:00
used the two major sprinkler system
Unknown Speaker 1:00:05
feature last summer and the summer before. So
Unknown Speaker 1:00:11
I can think without even thinking about it, I could think of three tiers of metrics. We could look for movements
Unknown Speaker 1:00:18
at each tear and then you need to figure out
Unknown Speaker 1:00:23
depending on what target you expect to hit
Unknown Speaker 1:00:27
how hard you have to work on it
Unknown Speaker 1:00:41
Unknown Speaker 1:00:46
so we touched a little bit on point two well I guess does anybody have any like closing
Unknown Speaker 1:00:54
Unknown Speaker 1:01:01
so we’re asking if you approve and moving in the direction of continuing and or increasing our benefits to vulnerable communities. So we currently offer several programs
Unknown Speaker 1:01:13
and resource central we just started offering income qualified during the last discounts career some essential and then our partnership with efficiency works is a bit more money but we’re
Unknown Speaker 1:01:29
we’re working on increasing those those benefits and removing as much red tape as we can for for our community members to have access to rebates and discounts on efficient projects and programs for
Unknown Speaker 1:01:48
the vulnerable communities that I’m talking about is defined by our sustainability department and they’re working on
Unknown Speaker 1:02:01
they’re using their they hired a consultant to to identify the vulnerable parts of our community as far as most affected disproportionately that climate change. So heat impact,
Unknown Speaker 1:02:17
Unknown Speaker 1:02:23
Unknown Speaker 1:02:25
so just members of our community that don’t have access to the same benefits and resources that other members of our community do. So it could be anywhere between from income vulnerability to like, living in a place where there’s no trees, to
Unknown Speaker 1:02:46
my point, actually, I can understand vulnerable members but when you say communities describe to me an area that you can
Unknown Speaker 1:02:58
focus on and I don’t know I’m not sure we understand Do or do not have that yet. So they’re struggling
Unknown Speaker 1:03:07
we do have those identified risk and vulnerability man, thank you
Unknown Speaker 1:03:18
Unknown Speaker 1:03:20
my question is, I so I support that we continue to investigate that and to my resources to that question.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:27
My My comment is that I want to know how we are actively engaging with those communities versus passively offering to those communities those types of resources Yeah, yes, we can make them available. But those communities may not be the most informed or that have the most access to information and there’s an active there’s an active
Unknown Speaker 1:03:54
program for reaching out
Unknown Speaker 1:03:57
Unknown Speaker 1:04:02
someone we do identify now
Unknown Speaker 1:04:07
I can’t remember that.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:09
So program Oh, so yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:14
Sustainability group is heavily involved in that.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:19
They are reaching out directly. An example we we increased our garden in the box, there’s certain
Unknown Speaker 1:04:30
Unknown Speaker 1:04:33
city we apply for garden but first garden the box is a very big deal.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:40
But then we apply apply associated to that, to reduce that price even more. And to the sole participants to to the program. We don’t have to do it through water conservation. That program we then gave
Unknown Speaker 1:05:00
Unknown Speaker 1:05:02
Unknown Speaker 1:05:04
partly because what it does is then for being common
Unknown Speaker 1:05:08
members of that
Unknown Speaker 1:05:10
if they convert to then landscape, the more there are so. So it really, really does help them. And but it’s a lot of work.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:21
I get that too. But so that program is really how we identify and actually get that information. Yeah, I just made that comment, because oftentimes
Unknown Speaker 1:05:36
that information isn’t actively used, doesn’t yet. It’s just we’re offering it. And, gosh, why isn’t anybody using it? There’s that disconnect. It’s, well, that’s just a bait being helpful was actually helpful. Yeah, we actually are currently facing there. And
Unknown Speaker 1:05:52
I’m working really closely with the sustainability team, that they’re hiring someone to do a study on best practices to reach those, because all of their programs are the same. But this will also like, I really want our, our update to be focusing on that, like, where and how did you reach these communities? It’s very important.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:16
I don’t I’m just remembering back and I think is just, you might have a look on the bottom, it gives somebody like the opportunity to change up their landscape, not just Roxton or asphalt or just not aesthetically, it’s also terrible.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:33
But what about trees? Like we’ve got them in a box of
Unknown Speaker 1:06:37
trees in a bucket? Because they’re a program where we can bring that aspect to communities. And it’s something that, you know, so yes, yes, there is. And I’m not sure a couple of ads promoted to, and
Unknown Speaker 1:06:51
I get the idea that there’s this little cabal of people who know about it, and they’re dialing it in, like the day it opens of
Unknown Speaker 1:07:04
word of mouth? No, I mean, the lack of communication to our community members, I would say is a citywide issue. It’s not just programs that people don’t know about. So definitely. There’s a treatment, there’s a tree, Arbor Day sale, and we did a
Unknown Speaker 1:07:22
large tree for $40.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:26
But yeah, I mean,
Unknown Speaker 1:07:28
ya know, I say,
Unknown Speaker 1:07:31
Unknown Speaker 1:07:33
we get our math being some sort of wonder cube on
Unknown Speaker 1:07:38
location to be identified to like, really be like, literally, it’s a cube on people.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:45
Unknown Speaker 1:07:48
Listen to the sustainability coordinator.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:00
No, that’s okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:02
I am hearing a little bit of kind of discussion about the way that it’s kind of framed as, hey, we have this program, how do we advertise this program to vulnerable communities? And I just want to make sure that we also kind of shift that around just a little bit, which is kind of more of a near vulnerable communities, what programs do you want? Absolutely what what programs would best
Unknown Speaker 1:08:30
allow you to, to to meet the goals that we’re trying to do with the programs that we provide, like Google, or your water bill, or one of those types of things that we really, you know, some amount of review over? So, you know, just again, kind of flipping that mindset around a little bit to make sure that we’re not just figuring out ways to do them, but actually missing from them. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:55
Absolutely. And, and again, these are just things that we’re proposing that we study, the big part of what our update process is going to be is engaging with the community and making sure that we’re doing what they asked us. And if they say your programs are crap, we don’t want them we were actually rather you do this, then we’ll do that. But this is like part of what we’re going to be engaging or public, in our community members on.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:22
Unknown Speaker 1:09:25
Okay, moving on to three. And it’s a little bit of what we talked about before,
Unknown Speaker 1:09:32
creating sustainable and equitable landscapes through updating our city code, language and design standards, creating arterial right away and residential communities, and mercial pre approved landscape designs, and updating our parks and public spaces standards. This is again, just reiterating that we don’t
Unknown Speaker 1:09:54
want to just encourage So right now our code language encourages
Unknown Speaker 1:10:00
In low water, water wise landscaping, we’re going to prioritize and or enforce water saving designs in the development and redevelopment of spaces. And so for folks who want to tear out their yards, we already have language in our code that says like, you can’t have just rock, and you can’t have just mulch has to be X percentage of living materials. And so this will go a step further define what our low water use plants are defined what our
Unknown Speaker 1:10:32
pre approved, sort of, you know, obviously, folks can do most of the time what they want to do, but giving examples, right, because what we find what I find daily is that people don’t know. And so if we have examples, and I included some examples, and in the packet, we have examples that say like, Hey, new developments, a Costco that’s putting in turf right now, please don’t do that. Here’s a streetscape for you that we love as a city. And then they say, okay, cool. They’re gonna do it. Because we hear from developers that that’s a common thing that they’re saying, we’ll just do what you asked, but we’re not asking them to do anything.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:10
So do you all support us studying that in the creation of those designs, doing a code audit, studying our code, figuring out the best language of code updates
Unknown Speaker 1:11:27
comparing ourselves to other communities around us? Anybody disagree?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:39
Yes, yes. Can we add maintenance to that? Is there something worse with maintenance guidelines? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:47
It’s like putting in something brand new and then having nobody takes care of it so it’s completely useless. I
Unknown Speaker 1:11:52
hate how they
Unknown Speaker 1:11:59
installations easy. People met some people don’t like it.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:05
Because it’ll look good.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai