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Unknown Speaker 0:00
All right, we’ll call the order and Sue’s Maria you can call the roll
Unknown Speaker 0:10
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Sibley present. Commissioner Jacoby Here. Commissioner. Commissioner Barnards. Here, Commissioner Fenster. Yeah, thank you. And then we’ll have a little welcome everybody here and introductions for those of us in the room.
Unknown Speaker 0:46
Good afternoon, commissioners.
Unknown Speaker 0:46
My name is Jeremy Terrell. I’m
Unknown Speaker 0:48
on the assistant city attorneys at the city attorney’s office. I joined the office in January of this past year. So nobody knew to the office, but planning development is one of my many clients. So to the extent that historic preservation commission has legal questions, most of those questions will come to me, eventually, the brief presentation this morning or this afternoon and let you brainstorm and do all your things that you’re gonna do the work session.
Unknown Speaker 1:14
I will mention that we’rxe down a few attorneys so and our city attorneys out of town this week, so Jeremy’s got other things. So he’s going to do his presentation on open meetings, and then we’ll have to leave this
Unknown Speaker 1:33
gives us the opportunity to make up things that are
Unknown Speaker 1:41
called job security.
Unknown Speaker 1:48
This is, in fact a public meeting. So we will take a moment to open up to any public that was like Okay, let’s see.
Unknown Speaker 2:11
Let the record show that the commissioners guide you is alright, so we’ll open up the public invited to be heard for anyone on here in public Seeing none, we close the hearing and move on to discussion items. So our first is presentation from Jeremy here, Open Meetings record block was it additional figures a good opportunity to do a refresher for everyone, some new commissioners, some haven’t seen this for a while and we are a funky group in a way like all the zoning precincts come down and take a little time working on next day.
Unknown Speaker 3:10
So again, my name is Jeremy trail, the city attorney’s office and presentations on Open Meetings, open records and quasi judicial proceedings. We’ll also throw the biggest fan there are some really fun. So we’ll start off talking about Cora, she’s the Colorado open records act and move over the color for me as long as minimum 40 wonders of the gift ban as part of the Colorado State Constitution. And then lastly, we’ll talk about it was an issue. So Porto or the Colorado open Records Act was passed in 1963. It’s very similar but slightly different than the federal version, which is FOIA, the Freedom of Information Act. The goal, of course, is to have an open and transparent government. Why and that’s because it’s the People’s Government, they should be able to see what is happening. The idea is that if we’re creating public records, and I’m talking about what that means that the government that people as a right should be able to see it with very limited exceptions. So of course, it does apply to municipal governments and municipalities, which doesn’t use long months necessarily goes to public officials of the city of Longmont for submission. As I said, the starting place is generally that any records public unless there’s an exception to it. So some common exceptions for open records is attorney client privilege. So to the extent I would provide legal advice to the commission or to any staff members, that’s protected and that’s not part of Korah. There’s also some exceptions to like the deliberative process. So to the extent there’s like a discussion about how to address a certain policy matter, that could also not be subject to court as well. But again, those are exceptions. And the norm is that there’s an open record. There’s a record it’s open to the public. What is a record a record is all writings in this remained made, maintain or kept the city of long locks in the course of official city business. So when I say all writings, this includes email letters, memos, any sort of publication with the city could make or maintain. So for example, emails you were to send to Glenn or Jennifer those via both records, because our emails are the records.
Unknown Speaker 5:28
That about chat, Jeremy,
Unknown Speaker 5:31
we use chat now a lot. Yes, teams in the office. And I often wonder that’s on the
Unknown Speaker 5:38
next slide. The next slide is a clue. So it doesn’t include teams, it does include text. So for example, if you were to technical on his cell phone, that can be opened record, if it’s discussing official City Business. Even though it’s not maintained, or capital city of hormones, it’s God’s personal phone is made by a representative facility along one or two staff members. So text messages would apply emails, Outlook calendar, invites, any sort of databases, so Excel spreadsheets, those are all records. We don’t use quite jabbers often city anymore, but teams certainly paper examples of memos, letters, things of that nature. And then notes, maps or contracts as well. So you know, when we have a settlement agreement, for example, on behalf of the city, that can be an open record as well, even if we have a confidential revision in there in a way that’s a local practice.
Unknown Speaker 6:38
And the reason, yes, so I have a separate email for this reg PC. But then I get an invitation to a meeting. I just put it on my calendar, suddenly, I have a separate calendar. Keep the whole calendar for me, no,
Unknown Speaker 7:01
no, your your whole calendar would no record just that invite itself. So the idea is that, you know, if it’s a larger matter, it’s a larger document. And part of it is an open record just that part of it to be. So if we had an open records request for any commissioner Barnett fernet invites on your calendar. That’s you could produce just those invites, but not your entire calendar. Good question. And the reason why we talked about open records and why it’s so important is that when since these are all public records, when you’re doing sizi business, it’s important you think about what you’re saying and a record before you send it. So we always have what’s called the front page times called test, you don’t want to pretend to contest don’t put it in writing. When in
Unknown Speaker 7:47
doubt, phone calls,
Unknown Speaker 7:48
when in doubt phone calls, these phone calls aren’t public. The call itself would be the showing that you call someone but not the audio conversation. Before this, I was an assistant attorney general for the state of Illinois. We also had a very similar open records act, and one of my clients was having an affair with another employee through email. And that’s one of the many things we produce is it open the record? So if you don’t want public to see it, don’t put it in writing as you’re conducting City Business. Switching over meetings law, this one, I think we’re all familiar with this, because this is an open meeting right now. And so generally open meetings law declares that public policy is that public policies public business, you can’t do meetings in secret. What does it mean, you might have to produce agendas in advance of meetings, you have the right to be heard, you have to give notice of what’s being discussed in a meeting and a meeting should be open public as well. And a meeting is defined as any gathering by elected officials or border Commission’s discussed by the business. This could include by phone in person, zoom, teams, email, text or any other means of communication. We’ll talk about the limit what constitutes a meeting here in a second. But a meeting doesn’t have to be in person. It could be over the phone, it could be over email, could be over teams, we’d be cognizant of what we’re doing. And when we’re talking about city business,
Unknown Speaker 9:13
Jeremy, how many commissioners in the discussion constitutes a meeting that needs to be noticed
Unknown Speaker 9:21
three or more? So good question. So if one commissioner is talking to another Commissioner, or one commissioner is talking to lead or Jennifer, that’s not a meeting but as soon as there’s a third person from the Commission, that’s a meeting now, which is not insignificant guys.
Unknown Speaker 9:43
absolute numbers,
Unknown Speaker 9:45
it’s an absolute number.
Unknown Speaker 9:46
Yes, because I’ve worked in like the state of Florida it was two to
Unknown Speaker 9:51
every state’s a little different. And so we’ll talk about some common examples of over meeting kind of issues, but one big one is email. So for example, when the email out with the packets for the for the agenda for this retreat. If someone was to click Reply All and reply to all the commissioners that would actually constitute an open meeting. And since we had not noticed that email have been in violation of these law, so even as a big one that we run into issues with a lot of questions about. So if you had a question one way, please shout him out to it’s very informal, so short presentation. But so the Colorado Supreme Court has clarified the scope of the open meetings law to apply only to gatherings where the demonstrated link between the meeting and the policymaking powers and government entity holding or attending the meeting. So really discussing matters of public importance don’t trigger a meeting. So you’re all to have a happy hour after the retreat today. As long as we didn’t talk about work at all, if you want me to talk about the district Preservation Commission or the work before the commission, that’s fine. You’re welcome to be friends with each other, you’re welcome to discuss non historic preservation commission issues together. As the last point chanson here, social gatherings at which discussion, public business is not the central purpose. Those are not open meetings. So it’s a chance or it’s a social gathering as long as your business, there’s no open meeting law violation. And so here’s our slide about the three or more so three board members of city council or board or commission get together to discuss policymaking, it’s a meeting, it needs to be open to public. Public means do you require full and timely notice the meeting has been 24 hours and specific agenda information when possible, we must take minutes and record the meetings as well. Similar to core, there are some exceptions as well as meeting the law. So under open meetings, we can have what’s called an Executive Session, executive session are parts of open meetings that are private and that the public is not allowed and ignores or read the letter we can get into that executive session. So some common examples would include if there’s a real property transaction, a personnel matter and legal advice. So if the commission needed to have legal advice concerning a certain issue during a meeting, we could call an Executive Session, at which point I could give my legal advice, but can only apply to legal advice. So to the extent we want to start having policy considerations, that’s not protected, and we can’t be having an executive session. But the question is, can we do this? Is it illegal? That is a part of the executive session that would be for legal advice. If for any reason, you think there is a need for an executive session based on the agenda or some topic that’s being discussed? Please let your staff liaison to the city attorney’s office know in advance that way myself or Eugene, the city attorney or someone else my office can be there for the purpose of having an executive session. So you have a question.
Unknown Speaker 12:50
While ago, we were dealing with a barn out here, and I was scrambling around talking to different folks
Unknown Speaker 12:54
in the city. And I emailed Commissioner Martin talking about it. And she, she emailed me actually, and I responded,
Unknown Speaker 13:05
and then
Unknown Speaker 13:08
I forget the name of your city lawyer, I mean to the glare, but he stepped in said we were not able to discuss this, it was just the two of us by email. It sounds like that would be allowed. No, he had a problem with that, because it was a real estate transaction talking about the barn, and possibly the city acquiring it. So I’m a little confused.
Unknown Speaker 13:31
It has to be three or more usually,
Unknown Speaker 13:35
from a meeting is three or more than one commissioners. There could have been a reason why you can advise me is because of the core issue. So that email discussion, we’re going to open the record. So perhaps that’s why he was concerned about it. It’s hard to say the abstract borders. That had been one reason it could have been exempt from the quarter requirements of the real estate transaction. We didn’t want to in writing in the first place. It’s hard to say any kind of abstract of why that
Unknown Speaker 14:02
would have happened. The credit clarify with Mr. Meyer and he the satisfaction is still fuzzy. And when in doubt, I’ll ask you, I guess,
Unknown Speaker 14:15
because counsel might have taken action on it later. It could have been concerned about a conversation outside the public hearing. Yeah, maybe?
Unknown Speaker 14:24
It certainly could have been that issue as well. I don’t know the circumstances. It’s hard to say it could also fall into kind of more to Glen’s point, the quasi judicial realm that we’ll talk about the very end. So while judicial proceedings, we have to be careful about what’s done outside the scope of meetings, to preserve everyone’s ethics and ethical obligations essentially. So this is the fun one. So the voters of the state of Colorado did passing them in 41 a number of years ago, because she doesn’t since it came out Slide, which prohibits gifts to certain city and public officials. So again, this is a constitutional amendment. And generally it says that government officials are prohibited from accepting a gift valued in excess of $50 from any person in the calendar year. This has been adjusted for inflation and is now $65. And I mean $65 Until next year, when’s reevaluated for inflation purposes. So what is a gift? Generally, a gift could include cash, it could be an honorarium that could be travel expenses, entertainment or special discount. So for example, if someone who had an application for the commission or to give you $75, and I’m checking in and here’s a little gift for you, and then asking you about either way, that would be a violation to get banned, even if they weren’t trying to influence you, or at least that they weren’t influenced you. This also includes your spouse’s under the Ethics Commission. So the person applying before the board can’t get your spouse to check in, get her up and get bam, that’s still in vaccines as well. Certainly exception, so conferences where you’re scheduled to speak so if you’re invited and scheduled to speak at a conference, your travel expenses may be paid, you can have meals there and all that that’s all fine facility unsolicited tokens of appreciation of trivial value, or trivial value. So if someone just gives you like a postcard or a plaque or something, those are fine. And certainly personal relationships, to the extent you have a friend who has businesses before the commission. And if you’re a friend and routinely exchange guests with you, I get the holidays, you don’t worry about that in the holiday time. That’s an assumption for a personal friend relationships or relatives as well.
Unknown Speaker 16:52
So there’s a couple of limited circumstances where the historic preservation commission operates in a quasi judicial proceeding. Generally, it’s when historic preservation commission is the decision making body. So for the most part, most of the action, the recommendation, major city council that often makes the decision, those aren’t quality, quasi judicial legislative actions. But for decision making, it’s looking at applications for economic incentives, certificates of appropriateness and analysis, certificate of hardships. Those are all the quasi judicial proceedings for the historic preservation commission. And so under those limited circumstances, since the historic preservation commission is the decision making body, you’re acting similar to a judge in a court of law as the quasi judicial capacity. And so quasi judicial proceedings, they have to apply existing criteria ordinances seem to have a firm or criteria that you’re looking at for evaluating decision, you have to consider facts, a specific property has to be presented during a hearing. With advance notice, in a reasonable opportunity for you interested persons to present evidence and arguments. We’ll talk about what all that means here in a moment. But the main idea is that you don’t want me making a decision concerning a precision surfing appropriateness certificate of hardship or application for economic incentive. Until you’re in a meeting, you probably notice the opportunity for people to present evidence and be heard. The reason why all the elements matters were due process, which is a special protection and safeguards applied in ensuring a fair hearing for the applicant, and the property rights are at stake. So if all those three circumstances identify, you know, someone’s that there has some sort of property interest or an economic interest in what HPC is deciding. And we don’t want as a decision made in secret. We don’t want the idea that commissioners are considering evidence outside of the hearing and things like that. And so it’s all to ensure that person’s due process rights aren’t violated. So during these quasi judicial proceedings, HPC must apply the applicable criteria and bases decision solely upon the record of proceedings. So these include staff and after reports and presentations, it could include community input, receiving notice of the hearing, so letters, emails, etc. It could also include testimony or evidence given at the hearing of someone a lot of testify in support or against the application as well. The important thing with quasi judicial proceedings that we don’t consider ex parte communication so the HPC must not consider any information or information received outside the record. And so what that could entail is if you’ve a neighbor or if you know someone about an existing property who has an application and doesn’t like the application that they come up against, they talk to you on the streets outside the hearing they email you they text you if they give you a phone call after the hearing, and you notice before the commission the best rule of thumb is to tell them hey, we need to come up to here we can’t discuss over the phone that’s gonna affect my impartiality. Does that mean ex parte communication you know communication discussing decision before HPC It’s not for the record, the best thing they can do is send a letter email in advance of the hearing. So if we considered or the evidence or testimony or justify the hearing itself. And the idea is that we want to have fair and impartial decision making by ensuring disclosure while evidence and argument the hearing. And again, so if your contact number of public concerning a matter before HPC is we’re deciding that you should directly snip in comments or attend the hearing present as
Unknown Speaker 20:27
evidence. If you conducted some independent research on which you used intellectual, present documents, that would not that would not constitute a public record.
Unknown Speaker 20:47
And likely would
Unknown Speaker 20:47
not concentrate on public record. Yes. And nor is it ex parte communication. So you could part of the, you know, the beauty of democracy that exists in boards is that we are in your own life experiences, make decisions. And so if you know, to the extent you want to conduct your own, try by the potential residents to look at, you know, whether or not six feet appropriateness is appropriate, that’s fine, for the most part, it gets a little dangerous, you get out of your car, and let’s say you talk to property owner, that’s an ex parte communication. If when the neighbors walks up to you and starts talking to you about it, experts in communication, if you’re just physically driving in your car, and you don’t leave your car, you don’t look at any signs that they get along saying don’t vote for that this site visits are complicated. But in general, you know, that’s part of your life experience that you could bring to the commission, and not have an ex parte communication issue. That answer the question. What’s the penalty of violating the quasi judicial proceedings? So generally, there’s an ex parte communication that’s somehow discovered in the course of litigation isn’t like that, the decision but historic preservation commission can be valid valid, so could overturn the decision. And there could also be legal remedies against the city in terms of attorney fees and costs and things like that. In general, if you haven’t started communication, even in Burton’s the best thing you can do is to disclose it. So there’s limited securely issued, you can disclose in the record of the hearing I talked to so and so. I didn’t know they’re going to talk about this issue. They told me that they don’t know if this application for certificate appropriate as so they said, It’s really bad. I told them stop at that point. Do you disclose in the record, because it’s limited, that’s fine, you’ve cured the problem. Next are communication. If it’s extensive, the best thing you can do is recuse yourself from that decision. So if you know let’s say some rambling talks about something you don’t want to talking about, in the very end, you realize it’s actually something you put HPC that you’re making a decision on. At that point, there’s not really a good way of curing the problem. Apart from recusing yourself, it’d be hard to, you know, regain the entire conversation you had on the record, unless you can, which case my builder, you know, cure yourself that
Unknown Speaker 23:14
you could do it right now, because you could disclose the entirety of the exchange.
Unknown Speaker 23:21
Yeah, so you could disclose disclose the entirety of the exchange, you know, if you had a recording or something like that, or civilian memory, you could disclose it, and that was should cure the ex parte communication issue.
Unknown Speaker 23:34
So, if we’re say somebody is proposing a big addition to their house, and we’re, I’m going by and looking at, and the neighbor comes up to me and says, are you looking at that place? And you think about that addition? It’s horrible. I don’t want to see that there. You say, Well, you can talk to me about it. You can come to the meeting, oh, I don’t want to come to the meeting an upset my neighbor. He’s my next door neighbor. I’ll never talk to him again. So now I’m in that position. But if I went to the meeting said a neighbor came, presented his objections and I outlined everything he said we were okay.
Unknown Speaker 24:09
The best situation or benefits outcome of the meeting himself
Unknown Speaker 24:13
choosing because definitely upset his neighbor than what is it still acceptable to without losing myself, but able to just provide that conversation at the meeting?
Unknown Speaker 24:25
Technically, yes. Okay. It’s hazy legal grounds. Technically, it’s fine. It doesn’t give the best example
Unknown Speaker 24:33
of you know, certainly encouraged him to come. Yes. So set a
Unknown Speaker 24:38
meeting, agenda, hearing himself and testify sending a written comment. I think the we can consider counseling items. I believe we’ve encountered that before but
Unknown Speaker 24:51
Well, yeah, we people send us any kind of email.
Unknown Speaker 24:55
I’ve never received an anonymous email. You We didn’t even donate to people, I actually encourage people if they call to submit a written comments that we have something on the record, right.
Unknown Speaker 25:09
And if they do either though, show up or write a comment, even if it had discussed it with the commissioner, that’s a
Unknown Speaker 25:17
that’s a cure. As long as the Commission also discloses the commission, you still disclose it, even if they also sent him a letter or if the hearing is closed. But again, the best situation, you know, if they start talking about it, tell them to stop sending a letter, send an email to the staff liaison or testified to hearing, that’s the best way of making sure there’s no evidence of expert communication. And it all goes back to that due process and ethical obligations we have as city officials and city employees. So we wouldn’t want one of our own projects to be tanked in private for reasons we don’t know. We wouldn’t want our property interests and due process rights violated if we can’t have an opportunity to defend ourselves and defend our application.
Unknown Speaker 26:07
And that was the last slide I had.
Unknown Speaker 26:10
Is there any other questions concerning Open Meetings, records, quasi judicial? We can answer this time before let you all continue discussing. Thank you, well, the attorney legal questions, the best way is to reach out to the staff liaison or directly to our office, and we can determine who best can handle is.
Unknown Speaker 26:49
So our next item is, is a whole slew of discussion items. And so basically, what we will decide to do is put the demolition code review kind of the end users will be here, we’ll just talk through this as more about goals for this upcoming year. And things to get. So as a as a rough outline, I thought we’d spend a little more time on certificate two, three and four, and not plan on time to the event of somebody’s very cute app to
Unknown Speaker 27:35
some slides, is really just sort of discussion points on community outreach. Is that something that’s been discussed? So really just wanting to hear more, you know, what’s what, how, what purpose with this community outreach is to inform the community? Is it to get feedback and information data essentially, from the community? Is that and then what form should that outreach take?
Unknown Speaker 28:05
Well, the reason I asked question set up for this forget about anyway, was I know, I noticed the last two years, the City Council started community outreach programs for two counselors will go to a shopping area or sub center and invite the community targeting human areas to meet with them talk about issues that we talked about. So that was the first line. Start there. The other I don’t know if conservation
Unknown Speaker 29:01
is later on. So the other
Unknown Speaker 29:03
piece in terms of outreach was building on some things we did with Karen. She was our liaison. So we had a couple of sheet put together a letter that went out, I think to property owners in our basically in our original town, they might have included people that own landmark homes in addition, but I don’t remember but it was he was a letter that basically went out to people and said, Look, I don’t know if you know this, but if you you know if you have a landmark home, you have an opportunity to potentially get reimbursed or for work that you do on your home if you need to make repairs and so on. You know that that exists. And further if you don’t have a live icon, but you have a home that that is historically significant, you might want to consider landmarking it because you they’ll be able to get reimbursed more, potentially reimburse for what did you do in the home? So it was just sort of a, Hey, do does everybody know this is here? Right? And we did get, I think we probably got two or three at least a couple of applications for COAs. And I think we might even get somebody who applied for a win designation as a result of that letter. So I mean, for a relatively small amount of effort, it had a, I would say, pretty decent return. And it would seem that that would be a good idea to do on occasion.
Unknown Speaker 30:36
Do you think she’s covered the original townsite? Then?
Unknown Speaker 30:40
I think so. I think it was original towns, I don’t remember, I don’t remember what it was every property in the original town site. Or if it was just, I thought it was more than just landmarks.
Unknown Speaker 30:51
It was more than landmarks. That’s the letter I was discussing at the last media. It was landmarks. I know it was everyone in the historic districts. I think it was everyone within the original city mile originals, their plan,
Unknown Speaker 31:06
the outbursts of that as a condition of an obligation to form Republic, in some manner, that there are limitations that would be considered by this commission.
Unknown Speaker 31:22
Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. It does actually tie into some of our other goals, whether it’s limiting demolitions or anything else. People need to know that they potentially have the stored resources.
Unknown Speaker 31:35
What do we do in that connection? What sorry, what’s more for forming the buck? Look,
Unknown Speaker 31:43
the other limitation has been essentially nothing. I mean, this this other than what happens on the public, you know, on the city’s website, known as a meetings, this, this was one of the first times the commission through staff reached beyond our little room.
Unknown Speaker 32:04
Basically been reactive. People make applications and you act on them.
Unknown Speaker 32:09
They know you’re supposed to
Unknown Speaker 32:12
write, which you know, that’s supposed to be triggered by the permitting process and nothing else, right. So if you submit a permit for an addition, and you’re technically you, you would need to come for a COA, then stick, it’s supposed to get flagged by permit tech and say, Oh, well, this, this is a property that needs this.
Unknown Speaker 32:34
And that happens, that happens.
Unknown Speaker 32:36
And is there a parameter that suggests that they would know that something they’re going to due to the property would require the
Unknown Speaker 32:45
first place?
Unknown Speaker 32:48
Yeah, anything that would require electricity to give appropriateness or a demolition? And we’ll talk about that later.
Unknown Speaker 32:55
And you’re asking a home alteration again? Yeah, I mean, technically, if you ask any kind of professional or construction professional, you hire the contract. What if you’re doing it yourself? Yeah, that’s great. I mean, sure. The flow rate in some areas are great, right? Yeah. How much can I do? That’s that’s limited by suppose by each individual’s individual capacity to do the work competently.
Unknown Speaker 33:25
may need to check the website to see
Unknown Speaker 33:30
a landmark
Unknown Speaker 33:35
by neighbor that I mentioned at the last meeting, they replaced their windows, they put a swamp cooler on the roof, the house is sitting designated. And I don’t think they did it. Meaning to hide it from people. I think they just forgot. I think we should send a letter out maybe just make the policy every four or five years sending a letter similar to the one you discussed that I gave you a copy of. I think we should send it out just to maintain awareness. Yes, that’s basic outreach we need to do
Unknown Speaker 34:07
and we have some dollars right. gyros, but we certainly have enough to pay for some postage.
Unknown Speaker 34:13
Yes.
Unknown Speaker 34:20
Some communities do larger events that are for the public and all this little tin they did a true grit like every year, which was just to talk about the goals of historic preservation. Let’s come forward and think through the doors open though they invite the public and in the evening, pretty well attended.
Unknown Speaker 34:42
The example I’m am aware of twos a neighborhood I used to live in. They had a very large, very active 543 neighborhood organization. They coordinate collaborated with the city store preservation staff to certainly do workshops Now use their use their reach and find craftsmen and experts for workshops on
Unknown Speaker 35:07
how do you restore your true rose?
Unknown Speaker 35:10
What do you cry for? How do you get a seal?
Unknown Speaker 35:15
So
Unknown Speaker 35:17
I don’t know that are similar or other groups have that capacity that we have that community based organizations organizational capacity that would require
Unknown Speaker 35:30
us to register and
Unknown Speaker 35:33
register your neighborhood. Yeah, it was essentially, in this particular case, the organization did most superwide work, because they had I was I was on the board of directors.
Unknown Speaker 35:51
So the city has a program that is an LGA. To be honest, I can’t think of the favorite group leaders Association,
Unknown Speaker 36:00
GLA, GLA, promoting individual neighborhood strength, encouraging everyone to get together and work together. They have a lot of good programs,
Unknown Speaker 36:11
right. And there is a map, somewhere on our website that shows all of the registered name really covers a good portion of the city. That would be a good vehicle to reach out hennas. Website is another so yeah, I can tell you that, that Hannah
Unknown Speaker 36:32
has a lousy communication infrastructure, we have no good way to get together with people. And every time we have a meeting, and people get lists of emails, some hobbies, things disappeared. I’m not managing it.
Unknown Speaker 36:46
I’m not here. The folks here don’t
Unknown Speaker 36:49
know keep it up internally.
Unknown Speaker 36:50
No, he doesn’t. I don’t think if you have a list, it’s probably more accurate than what we have. You would think we would keep a better list but in the neighborhood, but so far, it
Unknown Speaker 37:04
hasn’t been done. Social media presence.
Unknown Speaker 37:08
As you know, there’s like 40 different ways to communicate socially. There’s no one way that works is a actually we have our own website. But very few people know about it. We have a spot on Facebook, but no one looks at that. There’s three people that always with comments on that no one else. It’s very hard to get word out. We found that for neighborhood picnics, which we have every year, and we have to have it. If you are part of a designated neighborhood, you have to have at least one neighborhood meeting a year. It’s very hard to get word out to everybody.
Unknown Speaker 37:42
I should never have flyers on my door. But that said I’ve noticed the neighborhood association and floater that goes round and puts it in people’s doorsteps.
Unknown Speaker 37:59
Yeah. Okay. Yes, yes, exactly.
Unknown Speaker 38:12
There will be a newsletter again, because of the neighbor’s yard sale, right? Every picnic. Yeah. But before we try to get the letter out, so that’s once a year. And then we have to really marshal the troops who’s going to deliver 700 newsletters, you know, and try to organize that and getting people to do this blog or that blog. It’s very difficult to get word out.
Unknown Speaker 38:37
Yeah, any, any other thoughts or desires? I guess if there’s a desire to push more than just a simple outreach, then that becomes a bigger picture item to talk about.
Unknown Speaker 38:50
So let’s take the two things we talked about. What are our next steps, staff going to come back and some letters to people that have historically?
Unknown Speaker 39:05
I would say I think that Chuck’s many of our boxes, so I would put that at the top.
Unknown Speaker 39:14
And just keep thinking about this idea of gathered in the community.
Unknown Speaker 39:21
Council does a couple of things. They do the coffee one council every month, and then the mayor does the mayor, Vice Mayor. They picked a specific subject and they meet quarterly with community. I’ve done a couple was on transportation, homelessness. It’s been a few of those. And that’s a much bigger audience. In fact, they haven’t done this conference room down here.
Unknown Speaker 39:49
Men, let’s make a suggestion. We’ve got all this other stuff that we’re talking about when we begin to really talk more about each other piece, right as the year progresses, it maybe it’s an opportunity to say, hey, we’re really thinking about the preservation plan. And we’re going to have two or three open sessions with a couple of commissioners, if you want to talk about preservation plan. Come down, you know,
Unknown Speaker 40:22
in fact, any Jennifer could write it down on the board. So that’s just me. So
Unknown Speaker 40:33
I had three, community outreach to walking in same outreach, I was trying to think of topics for this. What is the st grand Historical Society had had instilled periodically, you can find pamphlets that are sort of like walking tours, just listing a number of houses on the east side and West Side, and talking about them. And I haven’t seen them lately. And if you’ve seen those, they’ve been around for 15 years, but less and less, the more time goes on. And I don’t know how the same thing historical societies funded is that just a volunteer organization, what their help but flip those pamphlets would be nice to be printed up and distribute again, just to raise awareness of historical homes. And I would love to see a little plexiglass little just hold her like they have done a lot of the county parks, you know, you can flag it open to Rangers get in there, pull one out, and you could put one in Thompson Park and one in Collier Park, people just walk by sale, pull it out, and they kind of walk around. And so that’s relatively cheap. It’s not directly the Preservation Commission. But it is historic awareness in our neighborhood. So that was one thought. Up top this the letter another thoughts was historic preservation month, coming up at the retreat, or at the saving patients conference. One great idea I heard now this may not work for us, but I thought it was a really neat idea. It is labor intensive. I forget which community coordinated with the school district. And they had art students in middle school, draw a historic home or event in their town, whatever they wanted, that looks historic. And then they had a contest, who had the best drawings. And they posted them in the library and people could go into the library could vote, just like you can vote on a piece of gear on the way out. And then the next year, it took these drawings that they did it again for the middle school the following year, but the subsequent years, the elementary school kids got to crayon in the drawings. And then you got to vote for which is the best colored drawing. So this, this was coordinated with the school district, a lot of energy came from the art departments of the schools. And it got families, mostly to the kids involved in just the historic aspect of it’s a lot of work. But I thought that was a great idea, especially since it harnesses other resources.
Unknown Speaker 43:30
So that’s something to consider for 20 or 25.
Unknown Speaker 43:34
Yeah, that’s a big project for sure. undertaken. During the final thing I was thinking of, if we want to get the newspaper for and just say, Hey, we’re here. One thing we could do, and this is something I don’t think I don’t know, if it’s ever been done. Me could propose landmark designation for the tower of compassion was just turned 50 years old. And we could call times call and say we’re gonna put this this time of power, compassion and get on the paper, and that would raise awareness. It’s a city owned. Building, it certainly is a landmark. It’s certainly historical, and it meets criteria. I don’t know who would propose it. If it’s a city building. Could we propose it and then designate it and then tell the city and, but that’s just another way we could get in the paper and raise awareness. So those are just some thoughts I had coming into here. I think it’s just so
Unknown Speaker 44:39
cool. All right. Well, I want to keep us rolling on everything we have any other those great ideas and before we move on.
Unknown Speaker 44:52
Okay, so this notion of certificate of merit and we had some discussion during the day request for a landmark status of home. But whether or not there could be a an alternative to landmarking, that still provided some sort of acknowledgement to a homeowner or building value that the property that wasn’t necessarily 100%. Worthy of
Unknown Speaker 45:33
calling that landmark light.
Unknown Speaker 45:37
Why? So, recently the particular instance that for started this, there were the commission was not unanimous in its ruling on a landmark, right. So there were some there was a property of a sort of borderline. And there were a few things that some of the commissioners didn’t feel like were made worthy of landmarking. But there was a discussion of well, exterior improvements.
Unknown Speaker 46:12
That’s one way to maybe help control the developments. Would that be enough of a carrot to maybe have people sign on? And the other thought is, could we witness
Unknown Speaker 46:23
I don’t think that’s our mission. So that would be
Unknown Speaker 46:29
right. But they the permit fees are waived right now. Right? Designated?
Unknown Speaker 46:35
No, you have to know you have to proactively apply for everything.
Unknown Speaker 46:40
Okay, yeah. But could we ask if that could be part of the city? financial structure, if we make a
Unknown Speaker 46:50
hole, certainly in talking about ourselves?
Unknown Speaker 46:54
Because it is there any lie you just as an incentive somehow to preserve the home without having to give it a press back and saying this is an outstanding example in our community that added up? That’s one thought. The second thought I have is you could take it, could you say this is a provisional landmarking? If, for example, the last house took off their vinyl siding, we could make it a landmark. And we could be will, can we guarantee that if they met certain criteria, you would then find it landmark worthy, then they could apply for a landmark, then we could give them their tax benefits that
Unknown Speaker 47:39
kind of already helped. Right? Like if somebody comes to us, and I know exactly what property you’re talking about. And you were right. And I voted for it anyways. Even at the top
Unknown Speaker 48:01
first thing I’m going to say is that I don’t think we should ever be making new rules based on like, very few cases, right? So did did what happened with that one property, even merit, this larger conversation? I’m not sure. I think we were all just drinking COVID. I don’t think there’s any reason like somebody couldn’t come to us and be like, Hey, I think my house should be landmarked. And we’re like no, take off the you know, you don’t need the standards. Like we’ve got the standards. We’ve got those those rules already. Right. So. So I’m not sure we’d be changing. Right, like, except, unless we’re trying to find any way to encourage people to come in and be like, This is what sucks about your house.
Unknown Speaker 48:59
Yeah, yeah. I’m gonna choose a question Given how young are their properties that will age into the story?
Unknown Speaker 49:13
average, everyday, everyday, moving target, it’s 50 years that the IRS gets you do we have
Unknown Speaker 49:21
any protocols for how to manage it? Never once should we be proactive? Manage that subject?
Unknown Speaker 49:30
I mean, they’re certainly I’m sure, you know, wonderful examples of everything periods. years, plus or minus 10 years ago that, yes, we should probably proactively be saying, Hey, we have a great interest in those you know, post war post World War Two subdivisions. We have some very nice examples in wildlife that are somewhat unique where you know, every house is like, tilted like 25 Hands up, a lot of them and they’re all still do the pros at all times
Unknown Speaker 50:06
know that their properties will age into? I mean
Unknown Speaker 50:14
I don’t think anybody considers a house built in 1965, historically eligible, right? We don’t think. But
Unknown Speaker 50:27
that’s that’s really what I’m asking. And that is
Unknown Speaker 50:30
what I should encourage that leads to the other topics. Survey. We know what we have, that’s the point of the survey is that then we will know when we can then you know, maybe ask Jennifer to send a letter to that neighborhood and say, what’s the interest here and perhaps in a district or you know, that your house is now historically significant, we have maybe a slight understanding on the survey, we’ll have the general context of those houses and sort of a windshield history of them. And here’s the information that we have. And so please contact us if you’re interested or get get a grant to hire somebody to ride around the nation.
Unknown Speaker 51:18
That’s to illustrate that that’s what was done with Williams. Our dean was in charge of the Rockefeller restoration. And that’s something that is how far how far into the periphery, should historic designation go, because there were transitional neighborhoods. And I think, ultimately, a program was approved to create those marginal verschil categories. And if we have some reason to do that, maybe we should get a little aggressive about
Unknown Speaker 51:59
which there’s a reason the agenda, that’s why I swear.
Unknown Speaker 52:17
This is a big one, obviously. And I think we can swing back at the end and summarize some of our thoughts and where we’re going, just in the interest of making sure we’ve covered everything. So yeah, preservation plan. I mean, it’s really sort of a plan. Preservation Plan is bigger, a bigger project. But I would really like to figure out a way for us to get some real progress towards making these two things happen. Because it’s going to take time and money to do that, and consultants and those sort of things in time to get that to happen. But I think we’ve got a plan for everything in the city. We have core plans and whitewater plans, and we have everything we do not have a preservation plan.
Unknown Speaker 53:14
So can I add there might be new added urgency because of the governor’s affordable housing. While he’s still I think there’s still a lot of workings
Unknown Speaker 53:31
going on.
Unknown Speaker 53:33
I’m sure. Lots of people scrambling.
Unknown Speaker 53:36
Yeah. And we’ve talked, I mean, we talked very briefly about it. I mean, there’s just the notion of you’re allowed to do anything new everywhere. And what does that mean? It’s historic neighborhoods. And potential, just right, yeah. That gets free without and it doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive here. But my notion is that we don’t need to come in here and say we have to preserve these historic neighborhoods and somehow get around this notion of eight years and not allow it. It’s just we really need if this was gonna happen, we’d have to plan to do this right.
Unknown Speaker 54:19
Again, well, fun. And a couple of edX to actually mentioned Historic Preservation the adu and the inclusion of middle housing is saying now shall be in every district
Unknown Speaker 54:33
that the same thing is defined to find your none of us as it was the solid
Unknown Speaker 54:47
probably still be in the end result but on the northeast side of their their cramped looks like they’re starting to cram apartment buildings and to make it cool Because yes. We need to have some guidance.
Unknown Speaker 55:15
And I think some in I don’t know if this is a separate, but design guidelines, and we’ve talked about preservation
Unknown Speaker 55:26
materials. So long term, you know, the longer piece of this is the preservation plan. So what does it take to get that allocation of funding? And, you know, that whole process of getting seek counsel and say, okay, yeah, we’re willing to do a preservation plan, allocate some funds, you know, have staff write an RFP and put it out there? What is all that?
Unknown Speaker 55:59
Generally, it’s part of our budget process, we put that in. And then we asked for funding as part of the budget. So that’s normally how it happened. Now, they’ve, the city has done some things as far as freeing up the amount of when you have to go out through an RFP. And I think I’ve mentioned at other commission meetings that we have been able to hire additional planning staff contract. So I guess my first step would be throw it to them and say, what would it take to do this process? Or else that would be? Well, they’re actually consultants on staff, and it would be already kind of part of our budget. So I guess what I’m saying if it’s a big number and a big effort, then we go into the budget year, which believe it or not, is starting real soon for next year. So there isn’t anything specifically about this in this year’s budget. What potentially what is your
Unknown Speaker 57:05
what’s your what do you consider a big knife? What would you have to go out to our
Unknown Speaker 57:10
league right now? Anything under 100 grand so which is a lot anymore
Unknown Speaker 57:24
I was thinking half
Unknown Speaker 57:24
America for preservation?
Unknown Speaker 57:27
Yeah. 3050
Unknown Speaker 57:34
years ago
Unknown Speaker 57:36
this goes off yeah. Yeah. Cost I don’t know what they paid. I think
Unknown Speaker 57:52
they also got a grant from shs
Unknown Speaker 57:55
that’s in that was going to be my other question. If you are applying for grants, is there a city process or can you just apply and then go to council and be like
Unknown Speaker 58:09
you have to go to council to accept the grant to turn it down?
Unknown Speaker 58:17
No. I know to talk I don’t know Stan Lawson not sure where their
Unknown Speaker 58:30
code zoning codes for
Unknown Speaker 58:33
they say their landscape architecture planning resort.
Unknown Speaker 58:51
Yeah, so they got an Shi grande probably and looks like they have a park service.
Unknown Speaker 58:59
The survey would happen First I would assume in which would identify resources. And then we will do a cultural plan. So they have to go hand in hand. Wow.
Unknown Speaker 59:12
So a survey plan is different than surveying. So a survey plan kind of does an overall context of the whole area that you want to survey. And then lets you know like, what you’re probably going to have to do most research on if there’s a specific type of building that you want or you know, there’s commercial area or if it’s just housing and so you there’s certain style of housing, that shouldn’t be you know, really honed in on and you can do some Oakenshield they’ll do like a windshield identification of the whole area. Or if it’s like a little city and then they’ll prioritize areas for you of like, okay, well this this area is no older plus it seems to be a transitional, you know, area of the city. So we probably want to get in there as soon as possible. So get that survey before people are, you know, wiping buildings up buildings, they’ll do that sort of identification for you and then give you a plan of how to survey. So yeah, which, which areas to prioritize, because typically, you know, unless you’re, you’ve been given a little bucks, you’re not going to be able to serve a couple of fun shots, you’re going to want to chunk it out
Unknown Speaker 1:00:36
in time when they did that was years ago now I can’t remember. But when they were coming up with the plans for the different sections of town, it was. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:55
Preservation supporting Israel?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:11
Would have been nice.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:15
I’m just going to throw this out there. Just because I’m in my past life, Once Upon a Time in Florida had comments, of course, national legislation. City, the historic preservation element was either a required or recommended element of the plan. So is that something that maybe we should consider as part of our Envision Walmart update? Was it to some point? That that’s something
Unknown Speaker 1:01:41
there has been chatter about doing an update?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:53
The recent discussion has been, let’s do the transportation plan this year as an amendment to a vision. So that is going to start here shortly.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:14
When would somebody like Carl Williams do a survey plan? Or is he just survey?
Unknown Speaker 1:02:23
I would talk to Jenny, I’m sure you have you talked to Jenny and say historically. Yeah, she’s a survey specialist. Okay. So she can kind of guide you as to how to put out an RFP or just get some qualified people, she can give you a list of people that have done survey plans in the past, she cannot give you a recommendation as she usually tell you who has done it. Number? Well, it depends how big you want to go. If you want to do the whole city. I mean, you’re probably looking at Yeah, like there but a year. Yeah, we’re just talking about, you know, if we want to focus on like, half the city, or the core of the city versus kind of a new growth areas, there’s a couple of different ways.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:34
I just looked at the population one month 1970 was 23,000. We’re now 102,000. So you’re talking about? And this is since 1970, the amount of area that is eligible for landmarking. Can you imagine? Since then,
Unknown Speaker 1:03:51
so right, Jeff, I mean, if the survey includes every, you know, international style house, right, you know, in town, it’s gonna be massive. Right, but there’s also a, you know, even one of the document too much. Significance from eight to 19 exams or something? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:18
Yeah. Again, it depends how you want to do it. There’s ways to do it, like our, our commercial district downtown. So it’s not necessarily age, it’s, you know, the commercial factor of that of our mainstream, but there’s some things that drops off mainstream because they’re also commercial and it’s not a type of buildings, specifically, it’s used in the building. You know, so it could be that, you know, we wanted to look at, like I said, like, you know, post World War Two subdivisions that arose in the 1950s. always kind of a warm, nice Suburban Lawn.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:57
Or, you know, there’s something recruits that shouldn’t be looked at as separate entities. Yeah. So
Unknown Speaker 1:05:03
that that would be like a district. You know, like I said, those kind of those those, that division, what were all the houses like off 25 degrees, you know, you would go, you would look in that area? And you’d say, Okay, well, you know, we can see where that subdivision was. And that would that would be a district, probably one of those houses individually would not be significant. But due to the integrity of those four blocks, that’s a district that’s significant, and that’s contributing to that district. Okay, that flows us into our next agenda.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:41
Before we do that, Denver project would be a good model, because they’ve been doing like these surveys for years. But I also know it’s kind of survey light, because they have
Unknown Speaker 1:05:54
more, though, right now. volunteer driven they have, right, they have a kind of like an iPad format set up where they go out in small groups, and they take picture with it. They fill out the form while they’re standing right there doing project leaders, but they’re mostly used as volunteers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if somebody wants to,
Unknown Speaker 1:06:21
if there’s somebody to lead that
Unknown Speaker 1:06:24
I can’t tell you how many times I wish I could just like win the lottery, and then I would just like read the presentation.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:47
Right.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:52
discovered it’s kind of in conjunction with the start number. I think so yeah, they’re, they’re doing historic Denver is doing the survey work. So there, they got the grant to do with their volunteer produce, but hopefully, eventually, in conjunction with the city of Denver and the whole city, that’s the goal, to they
Unknown Speaker 1:07:21
have criteria that will be useful to us.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:24
I mean, it’s just it’s general, it’s just a general survey form of like, here’s a picture, here’s the address, here’s a brief description, you know, what style is it? Is it kind of intact or not? I haven’t looked at the survey form in a long time. So but it’s very, it’s something that essentially anybody can fill out, while standing there without like a huge, you know, they don’t have a degree in preservation or anything, they just have an interest.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:50
And they’ve also gotten a lot of funding for message. Continuous. So. And that’s part of the most.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:04
Before that, there’s some money available.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:07
Yeah. But yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:08:08
professionally, we were reading through different preservation plans in Boulder of highs, every single funding cycle for surveys. That’s just part of our policy. And they are just chipping away slowly at the whole city. And I think that’s what we need to do. We are so far behind the eight ball. And I know we talked about getting funding getting the one application in and we can understand, but I think we have to make that a priority. At every single funding cycle, we should be getting money for surveys, because it sounds like it’s not competitive.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:39
Some of them are
Unknown Speaker 1:08:40
so the survey plan, Grant is not edited. But then if you wanted to come after us for the actual survey work, then you have to come in and edit it round. So don’t
Unknown Speaker 1:08:53
think boulder necessarily applies every year brass and shaft I think they do for CLG. And those are smaller, but they’re easier. A lot easier. Yeah, they’re still competitive. That it takes more work to write these grants. Yeah. And it feels like it’s our commission can volunteer to help.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:21
And there was a staff member, you know, Jade did put one in, and it didn’t go forward. And I think if she was still here, that would have been a wonderful learning opportunity about you know what to do better in the future. But that’s just another
Unknown Speaker 1:09:35
once you’ve got the system down, just change the address, you change the date and hand it in again
Unknown Speaker 1:09:49
in that round, but we will get better at it. Take as much time with practice. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 1:09:54
so anybody who writes good grant, potentially,
Unknown Speaker 1:09:57
yeah, yeah, it doesn’t. I mean, I think it would have to be submitted by the city assurance team, or cos I guess as
Unknown Speaker 1:10:04
a city wide. It doesn’t have to be.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:11
So if we can come out of this with a with a with the idea that we want that we want to a summit one won’t get from the city council with a budget request for some dollars for serving in this cycle. Okay. And, and with a note that we can submit a grant request to the state storage fund that’s non competitive, right. So this is still true from before. It’s $15,000. Right, so we should be able to get 15 grand from the state. And let’s get make that work to start the survey plan and get some kind of ball rolling in this calendar.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:55
Year. So 2024 budget request plus CLG. Yeah. Different Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:05
And CLG is done for this year. Yeah. So
Unknown Speaker 1:11:16
we are, here’s the first one. We did. Alright, so now we’re good. It’s a perfect real perfect.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:35
Exactly. We didn’t notice there isn’t a biological break in our agendas.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:49
After backup.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:56
So I thought we would hit this unless anybody’s dying right now we get this. That Well, before we got
Unknown Speaker 1:12:07
here, well, this is my item. And it came from Rick, because there has been some issues. I think raised primarily from head out that we went through and we did a city wide rezoning when we adopted our new land development code. And that made some subtle changes to the SF one district I think it was primarily about architectural compatibility. So there was some concern from kind of that, how do we restore that. So there’s these two different ordinances. And they’re very similar in a lot of ways. And they’ve recently asked about our conservation overlay that we have in the code. And that’s different than designating a historic district. And I wanted to kind of show the differences here. They’re both part of the code was part of the land development code. But the conservation overlay is kind of a y neck, it doesn’t necessarily say it has to have X amount of historic resources, it could be any kind of community. Yeah, I guess I can’t take notes, but I’m just gonna offer over here, but so it could be anything that makes that neighborhood unique, and the code allows for adoption of that overlay district yet, so I’ve been communicating a little bit with Rick, because we’ve never used this district in the history of Longmont. It’s always been a part of our code. When we did the rewrite of the land development code, we didn’t touch this part, unfortunately, because they felt Oh, geez, we’re not gonna get through. We’re not gonna get through the project if we delve into this. So it’s never been used. So there’s a little bit of question of how you actually implement it. But it says, if you’re part of that neighborhood, and G L. A, which now I forgot, neighborhood leaders Association. If you have registered neighborhood with the city, Lamont, you go to the city council Council says, Okay, go forward, and we’ll try and put together a conservation overlay. It means all the uses that are allowed in the underlying zoning stay the same, you can’t change that. But you are allowed to provide some flexibility in setback requirements, height requirements, landscaping, and architectural standards to stay within the context of whatever is defined as unique in that neighborhood. So the setbacks are kind of all over the place. You have some flexibility to move your front setbacks in and out. And then if the neighborhood wants to go so far as specific design guidelines, you’re able to draft those and get those adopted as a part of this overlay district with As you know, with a historic district, it’s really about how you enhance and preserve the historic resources that are in that defined area. So I guess I’d look at it as those are very specific requirements in order to do that, any change that requires a certificate of appropriateness in a landmark or historic district. And that becomes your purview that historic preservation reviews, all those things. Design Standards are essential. They deserve
Unknown Speaker 1:15:33
that. Also for non designated homes. If you’re in a city districts there are
Unknown Speaker 1:15:39
either you’re in a district or your alliance. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:41
So if you’re not a landmark home, but you’re in a district, you still have to come to the HPC, for changes on your house. Yeah, even if you’re not really contributing, contributing structure.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:53
Well, then we get into the what’s administrative right now, there is no administrative. So even if you’re a non contributing structure, yes, I think he will, before he
Unknown Speaker 1:16:03
had to go for every building for every stick of wood
Unknown Speaker 1:16:06
in the line. Some of it depends on how the district guidelines are referred to,
Unknown Speaker 1:16:13
because we, we don’t have any we don’t
Unknown Speaker 1:16:16
have any. We don’t have designated districts and I’ve, I’ve worked in other states with districts where essentially, if you’re a non contributing structure, you it’s administrative level review. And typically, it’s like you’re not contributing force and continue to not contribute. So it really depends on how you
Unknown Speaker 1:16:43
set it up. Well, right now, ultimately, we use the Secretary of Interior standards, right? It’s our design standards in locally designated district or landmark. A lot of cities take those and say, here’s how you implement them, and whatever the community is, and they kind of use examples, which would be really helpful for us. But we have such a great commission that I think you guys know, what meets that standard or not, but those are basically the differences. So we’ve never done a conservation overlay, but it’s really for a different purpose. It’s something that is maybe not defined as being historic resources that need to be preserved. Yeah, and I think if somebody mentioned, you know, postwar subdivision that has some unique setbacks, kind of a, you know, I guess, part of the history of, we need to house soldiers coming back, and this is how it was something first, you know, wide scale, sort of family, design and construction. So maybe that will be a designation. Now to speak, specifically to the head area. I think one thing that we don’t necessarily need the conservation overlay in that there, the majority of that district, that neighborhood is within the original city town site. So I think there are some things that we can do to kind of a feel they’re on hold at this point. But to maybe make that whole,
Unknown Speaker 1:18:20
I can tell you, we’re I think encouraging some of the neighborhood leaders to pursue a conservation overlay, after our discussions, and we are going halfway. I think you’ll be getting a letter in the next week or two back saying, start the process. It looks like it starts with a formal request from the group leader, which is Sharon O’Leary. And she will get a letter set speech, you have to be City Council. I don’t know if the letter presented, I have to go back and look, but anyway,
Unknown Speaker 1:18:53
we will definitely go to council that we ultimately it
Unknown Speaker 1:18:57
goes to council so I can
Unknown Speaker 1:18:59
sit there. Yeah, because the conservation overlay section of our code is in your packet.
Unknown Speaker 1:19:04
Yeah, okay. So we’ll see, but I know there, you can actually put it to the test. I know part of the problem. Practically speaking with the conservation overlay, why it hasn’t been used, and the neighborhood has considered it in the past is is prohibitively expensive for neighborhood volunteer organizations to if we’re going to if there’s going to be a zoning application fee. Again, this is we’re pursuing this as a salt rezoning. But it’s not exactly rezoning. rezoning means you are changing the purpose of an area conservation overlay means we are preserving the purpose. So it should be treated differently fundamentally. And there an application fee is difficult hurdle. We have to notify every household within the neighborhood. And mailers are prohibitively expensive. I know this timer Round, we actually have the to the end GLA they’ve gotten funds for one set of mailings to go to the neighborhood. So we are well on our way, just direct program, that’s our field and GLA has a grant annual grant program. And this year, we applied for money to pursue a conservation overlay. And we did get it. Okay, so but we don’t have funds for an application if their zoning application requires a fee. And I’m not sure if we would have to do that. But there’s a lot of precedents we have to set. Because it is, when I read through it, it’s been a little while since I last looked at it, but it seems a little vague. I’m not sure what we’re gonna need to do. But we I think we have to find a way to make it workable, because this is a neighborhood conservation overlay, and then once a conservation overlay, if they haven’t been able to get it yet something in the system isn’t right. They get approached before but they simply can’t afford it. Basically, they walk away. So that was one problem. But yes, you’ll be getting the letter. So we can see if we can make it work. Yep. Yeah, so learn on the fly.
Unknown Speaker 1:21:18
So this, so basically, currently we have the code to allow for this process to happen. It’s just that it’s
Unknown Speaker 1:21:29
got to be
Unknown Speaker 1:21:32
population. Somebody’s got to bring it up. Just hasn’t it?
Unknown Speaker 1:21:36
Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest questions is and we’ve had some luminary discussions with our city attorney about it is yes, it does, say submit a letter to start the process. But then it references you to other portions of the code that says you must have a property owner agree to a rezoning must have an application with the property.
Unknown Speaker 1:21:57
If there’s no amount that I thought maybe it locally has designated historic district, you only have to have 25% of homeowners to sign on to pursue it, which is remarkable to me doesn’t even have to be a simple majority of the
Unknown Speaker 1:22:11
majority is necessary. So if you want to present to improve safety, for which for better or better war, it does say or
Unknown Speaker 1:22:21
a letter from a registered neighborhood group requesting the district zoning or for areas without a registered neighborhood group with evidence that more than 50%. So if you have a registered neighborhood, there’s nothing about the
Unknown Speaker 1:22:40
conservation district gets a lower threshold to initiate hire to actually get it approved as higher
Unknown Speaker 1:22:49
from what I was reading on the conservation overlay, we meet all the criteria in the East Side neighborhood already, except for the formal request. And the comments that this is a rezoning. So I’m gonna go to the rezoning procedure. But it’s not a true rezoning. It’s following the rezoning procedure. But there can be exceptions made I presume for like I said, the fees, we have to notify people 1000 feet on each side of the area to be rezone when we’re not really changing anything. Well, if you were truly rezoning for different purpose, that would make sense if we’re trying to preserve, do we have to come up with money for those folks, I don’t think the neighborhood has money for all of that. See what I’m saying? So there are some differences. And but it’s not hammered out in the wording from what I’ve read, maybe you’ve read otherwise, but we can both we’ll work through it and see if we can make it work.
Unknown Speaker 1:23:43
You know what they want to do? What they want to do? Why? Yes? Well,
Unknown Speaker 1:23:49
I think we’re just trying to cover the single family. We don’t want to go to the mixed use development part of the middle of the neighborhood. Because I’ve made two copies of this, I’m gonna take that part of its single family zones, and add the conservation overlay with the design standards. We had design standards, until we had the first envisioned long run revamp, and then they all disappeared. And there are some homes that have been built that don’t fight the freight carrier. And there’s also the density is an issue. And again, all this is making even more of an issue that that wonderful home you designed you built it designed a beautiful home for two tiny lots. And that’s been quite a bit of conversation of what we should do. There is information in the conservation overlay about setback that says any building size can be should be between 50 and 125% of the size of homes on that block or facing across the street. So it would be coming audible, which sort of makes sense, except it doesn’t make sense in our neighborhood. Because there’s such heterogeneity in a lot size, one mark will be twice the size of another one, right next door to it. And we have some homes. For example, though, the home that you design, Steve would fit that criteria, but it doesn’t fit the lot. And that takes away from the overall character of the neighborhood.
Unknown Speaker 1:25:26
So I do want to interject, because I think that comes up a lot fairly fairly. That house in that design came from this commission. And
Unknown Speaker 1:25:35
we approach houses about sorry for
Unknown Speaker 1:25:37
26. Emery, and it’s a well designed home, it meets all the criteria. So the criteria are wrong, is what I’m saying. I don’t think that the neighborhood doesn’t feel the same. If we read it especially rare to have house after house like that. We wouldn’t even have yards we would have alleys between the houses.
Unknown Speaker 1:26:02
Prior to
Unknown Speaker 1:26:03
it’s a beautiful home, it’s well designed, it meets the criteria very well. Right. You can’t even tell there’s an edition that looks great.
Unknown Speaker 1:26:10
Yeah. Was a museum exhibit instead of living? Well, I that is my was, there is no.
Unknown Speaker 1:26:25
Right. Except that accepting of accessory dwelling units, we have impacted. I noticed they’ve submitted guidelines to planning about we don’t know you. They apparently someone who kind of came back and said, Look, you don’t like anything we’re sending you. And they said, Well, what do you want? We actually the neighborhood sent guidelines for ad use what we like and they sent along those guidelines, we’ve had no qualms. So until it’s not, we realize it’s coming. Yes, a lot of pressure. And it’s not a bad thing, per se, changes, definitely necessary. But again, the density has to be managed to that the character the neighborhood isn’t lost. And the character of the neighborhood isn’t defined just by the front of the house. So we’re talking this is one reason why the letter hasn’t gone out yet. We’re actively discussing how to request footprints be a certain percentage of the overall lot size or not, as well as a restriction in addition to setbacks. So I could go into more of that if you want. But you got time to discuss, I can discuss with you later as well. But, yes, we are going to pursue the conservation, which actually sounds easier than becoming a locally designated historic district can we don’t have to have a certain percentage of buying. But they’re very definitely difficult.
Unknown Speaker 1:27:58
Could we get copies of the community submitted ad design guidelines
Unknown Speaker 1:28:08
costing in the mouse? A couple of meetings ago, there will be a specific link to in fact I can I still have a way off. Maybe something?
Unknown Speaker 1:28:25
Counsel, basically,
Unknown Speaker 1:28:27
I can get another copy.
Unknown Speaker 1:28:31
I think it was just specific at us. I
Unknown Speaker 1:28:33
remember, I think it was requested for at us and I believe and I believe it was specific for us. But again, it’s just compatible architecture. And we’d be nice, I think I can speak for you consider
Unknown Speaker 1:28:53
any other thoughts or comments on the conservation overlay? Sort of district. So the last guest so then we have an item a place over for state programs. I think this was something that you brought up about other
Unknown Speaker 1:29:16
southern I had a big reaction from the conference, and we weren’t really heard a lot about state programs that are programs that are assistance like a facade program. And so I was just curious whether staff had compiled any kind of a compilation of what was available in grants for the state, the city that involved historic preservation, and if there was anything we could do as far as getting the money or getting the programs and just I guess cut for the city wants to go in the direction of some of the programs. So kind of has to be the conversation between the two you guys with us? The idea that
Unknown Speaker 1:30:02
LDA works with property owners to assign grants. For the counties, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for the Main Street area. So that’s one. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:30:18
I think rather than just receive grants that are out there, we want to make sure we implement what we decide here. So and I think we know what those are as the CLG. So ClD is certified local government, which means to be on historic preservation code, and or, therefore, there are certain funds that are available to us.
Unknown Speaker 1:30:46
And we were done. We have in
Unknown Speaker 1:30:49
the past,
Unknown Speaker 1:30:50
okay. What was the second stimulus?
Unknown Speaker 1:30:55
Right, is what we’re talking about applying for a mortgage.
Unknown Speaker 1:31:03
And I don’t know if there were other things that maybe you saw that say, Hey, that’s, you know, I’m just
Unknown Speaker 1:31:08
looking for a book. booklet, Jennifer’s sent a wonderful book, to us on email, if we’re getting physical copies, eventually requested physical copies, I spoke to a planner from Littleton, a friend of mine that I saw at the conference, and she mentioned this book, and I mentioned it to Jennifer, and she sent in an email Yeah, a copy that if you read that, it’s like 250 pages. It’s a very comprehensive book on CLGs, and how they work and what we’re available with. So I would recommend looking at that.
Unknown Speaker 1:31:48
I worked for a specific project, but it was still brick and mortar. My staffers and me just developed a full list of stuff available in the state, and then they email it to to her now. So they have it. Thank you. Yes, ma’am. And generally
Unknown Speaker 1:32:06
speaking, it’s better to have a project and pursue funding for that project and not pursue funding and then find a project for that funding. So yes, there’s lots of grants and programs and stuff out there. And but it’s better for us to prioritize what projects we want funded, and then I go find that funding is applying to every funding source. So we
Unknown Speaker 1:32:39
definitely weren’t having information. So let’s find something that works then we have.
Unknown Speaker 1:32:49
Okay, so is there anything else we want to throw out there more ideas and thoughts? And we ought to be talking about over the course of the next year, before we take a break.
Unknown Speaker 1:33:11
I recognize that this full agenda we probably weren’t gonna get to. But I mentioned the follow up. Plan is with respect to the granary surely. Oh, okay. I need your presentation. Which was great. But I don’t know how that love ideas there. And I don’t know how that what you’re thinking about. And I have no idea what the timeline is. Five years. I just really
Unknown Speaker 1:33:48
close. Yeah, so we just got, in fact, not yet. But I think in the next week, we will have kind of our final draft from Stantec, who is the consultant on that that’s basically goes through the recommended process and code changes in order to see the historic preservation and redevelopment of that sugar mill area. So we’re close, it was delayed. And partially it’s kind of ironic is that we started the process in order to get interest in folks taking on the sugar mill and preserving it and moving it forward. And then lo and behold, we end up with three or four developers that are looking at doing things in the area. So as soon as we would lay down an idea, they’d say, Yeah, we’re thinking this. And so it’s, it’s kind of been delayed from what we thought it was, but we should have a draft. We had to vet it internally. And again, meet with the folks that are working on properties in the area, and then we’ll do a presentation with HPC plan. In commission City Council is clean. So
Unknown Speaker 1:35:03
that’s good. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:35:04
Yeah, I remember you bringing that up. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:35:09
Yeah, I would say, you know, if we can have just a, I know, we don’t necessarily have any jurisdiction per se and a lot of these areas. But if there is, you know, it’s as if we have a lighter agenda, if there’s an opportunity to get an update on what’s happening in these areas that do have some historic preservation value, or something that might be happening in downtown or what just being made aware of any potential impacts to historic properties in the city would be nice if they if it just stayed.
Unknown Speaker 1:35:47
Right, right. And I have, as Kimberly’s involved me, in talking with folks who are interested in different downtown buildings, I have advised that they should do a basement informational presentation about this commission about what they’re looking to do. So.
Unknown Speaker 1:36:08
Are there any mandatory criteria?
Unknown Speaker 1:36:14
Unless it’s a landmark is not only Oh, yeah. So in a lot of these properties aren’t landmarked already. So.
Unknown Speaker 1:36:24
And, and that’s part of I mean, this is part of what we’ve talked about in terms of this conservation overlay. And it’s just local historic districts. That could be if we decided to make these local historic districts, right. But that would take somebody
Unknown Speaker 1:36:40
putting forth that
Unknown Speaker 1:36:43
proposal.
Unknown Speaker 1:36:44
And short of making them to historic districts we’re adding to the story can’t regenerate any criteria for extracting a particular property from a set of properties? Because the set the block, whatever it is, has some residents that shouldn’t be looked at?
Unknown Speaker 1:37:16
What do you mean extracted? You mean individually listed versus a district?
Unknown Speaker 1:37:22
We don’t necessarily mean individually listed. What I mean is criteria for whether a block unit that has some preservation value, can have part of the units are one of the events extracted from without notice, what do you mean by extracted from
Unknown Speaker 1:37:49
Oh, demolished?
Unknown Speaker 1:37:51
Okay, we’re gonna go, we’re getting the second half is next. All right. So what I do is, I have a few slides from a presentation back on August 16, that we did a session with city council, just to kind of remind some of you and unfortunately heard, but I think was the only one that wasn’t, uh, you were with us, right, though, so. So this will be new for bird. But then I just want to point out that the demolition requirements are proactive, and we’ve talked a little bit about people coming in with their application. But in this case, we want to get in front of somebody taking out a potentially future historic property. And they live outside of landmarks and districts. So it’s a little bit unique in that all of our requirements are if you’re a local landmark are a local district. However, demolition goes a little bit further. So that’s where we got into some legal issues that we discussed with the council. It’s definitely an HPC priority. I’m not sure why. But what is appropriate criteria and review process? So I’ve made a draft that will go through. We’ve talked about concepts with our city attorney, but they haven’t reviewed it. So I’ll put that disclaimer out there. And let’s, let’s get going. So first, this probably doesn’t really need to go through but we did talk about what’s a federal what’s a state what’s our local requirements? Just so that people aren’t I think this was really for our city council that didn’t realize, yeah, we have federal historic districts, but they’re not ours and our code doesn’t apply to them. Why do we have it protect historic character, the city talks about enhancing property better Use in stabilizing these areas. And there’s also we get kickbacks, because there are economic and financial benefits. Certainly, the activity in our downtown, a lot of it has to do with historic preservation. So it’s an economic development tool. And then we talked about designation criteria, and there was section 2.56, that we’ll get into that says council may designate a landmark with the consent of the owner, if it’s at least 50 years old, or is determined to have exceptional historic value, and meets one or more of that criteria. What was proposed at the time was a little bit larger change, which was add clear and definitive criteria. But this idea of a rezoning that is a historic preservation overlay. And we’ve talked about overlays a little bit earlier. That would make anybody who had a potential property know that, hey, I’ve got special rules. And that was one of the concerns that was raised, kind of falls in the category of due process, we can’t necessarily put rules on somebody without them being aware of it. So that’s what was proposed with this HP o that if you go through a rezoning, you have to notify the owner becomes an ordinance and it gets recorded. And then there’s also additional requirements for nonconceptual designation. And then we show this map that shows our original town site, which is the dark blue line. I love the sweatshirt, I don’t know where you got the
Unknown Speaker 1:41:45
I got it at the store downtown that we used to be by crackpots was
Unknown Speaker 1:41:55
over. So that’s the original town site. And then we have these various districts that have been created that are federal districts most recently in the downtown. But then we have the historic east side and historic west side, that in the west side just barely gets outside that square mile. And then every one of these dots is what the HBC as designated as a landmark. So we have a lot of landmarks. We have no local districts. This was certainly, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:42:36
Sorry. You probably just said this. So all those little like brownish squares, even outside of the blue, are those all those neighborhood associations? Yes,
Unknown Speaker 1:42:45
right. Exactly. Okay. Well, on farms, it’s outside that area. But unique thing is the historic east side is really within that blue square mile. Although I this was designated, I love that name planet. So then, December 1, I had to have a meeting with the chairman. And because I think both of us were realizing, I mean, bringing counsel along with this big thing was was a heavy lift. And I think I think there were some HPC members that maybe thought these do we really need to go through this whole HBO district. So I had to copy the names of the members. Yeah. Yeah, you missed out on this. But I know. So right. So what we did is, you know, after coffee was seen by so what what started at all, because I kind of missed out on that. And there was this concern about we’re gonna lose resources through demolition. And it kind of grew from there. So and then I came in as Jade was going through an amendment process, and that was really growing in scale. So we had a meeting on December versus I don’t we reel it back in and maybe get the more of a microscope change to affect how we do demolitions in a city. So I threw out a bunch of things, and then you guys kind of promoted saying what was most important to you?
Unknown Speaker 1:44:41
And when the flows
Unknown Speaker 1:44:43
to the second,
Unknown Speaker 1:44:45
everybody had three votes. So kind of add on long discussion, but this is kind of where we fell is demolition by neglect. That was a concern that an owner just Mmm, doesn’t take care of his property with the intent that all I can do right now is to demolish it. So that shouldn’t we shouldn’t allow that through our ordinance for votes for that. But far and away revise the demo requirements and the process we all realized was a big issue. 10 votes are a couple of things about enforcement and penalties. If there isn’t a good stick, how effective are you going to be with some of these requirements? And then the idea of incentives month to demolish is a good concept. So Steph kind of went through and we did a draft of the ordinance. Oh, you remember this? This was a table that Brian awesome. Yeah. And we pulled a few ordinances I think we gave you four columns and Lafayette that was it. But if you pull up the ordinance now my draft it should be in there should be in your packets
Unknown Speaker 1:46:17
136 36
Unknown Speaker 1:46:35
looked like it was in your packet right there on the screen
Unknown Speaker 1:46:44
which one are we looking for?
Unknown Speaker 1:46:46
So that
Unknown Speaker 1:46:53
that’s it for C. Corpse? Nope, nope. Nope. Actually,
Unknown Speaker 1:47:11
let me get back to the PDF version. Let us down.
Unknown Speaker 1:47:19
Okay, so it’s an early draft, you’re not gonna hurt my feelings. But yeah, keep in mind that you know, city attorney hasn’t seen it yet. But the intent here is we kind of reach a consensus on this first step. I’ll go to council and say hey, we showed you this which you know, there is some benefit to this. But we want to chip it off in bite sized pieces.
Unknown Speaker 1:47:43
Just make it a lot bigger. Where do you go it’s in your pocket also. You guys i’ll let you scroll through the years to five six.
Unknown Speaker 1:48:10
Yeah, I think we’re headed on proposed changes. So we’re versus maybe trying to define what demolition is a little bit better. So we added a partial demolition means anything 50% or less than the exterior walls. I noticed Lafayette had some cool drawings with it that really defined this for 50% More roof areas or any portion of an exterior wall facing a public street.
Unknown Speaker 1:49:01
Then we should define historic property. And I think some of these changes actually came from your red line from a couple of years ago. I think this might be directly from that means local historic district or landmark property or structure listed on the state national register or of historic places or any property structure identified architectural cultural resource survey. So
Unknown Speaker 1:49:36
we already defined what total demolition is. So we took that out. It’s redundant.
Unknown Speaker 1:49:44
Just back to the historic property piece that basically says that if it’s if it’s landmark or if it’s contributing, building in a district or even identified in a reservation plan, which might come later than that
Unknown Speaker 1:50:01
deemed worthy
Unknown Speaker 1:50:02
or deemed worthy to qualify for
Unknown Speaker 1:50:07
Chairman to be eligible considered eligible not having been nominated
Unknown Speaker 1:50:22
they’re just slowly enough on the historic property means.
Unknown Speaker 1:50:34
So it says For listed on state or federal register, determined to be a contributing resource from the national or state register their local store.
Unknown Speaker 1:50:49
So that means that it shows up on a cultural resource survey, and then the survey says it’s contributing to the district, then it doesn’t matter whether it’s landmark or not, then that’s
Unknown Speaker 1:51:04
within consideration. Well, right, except we’re just defining the term right. So it’s where we plug in historic property right is
Unknown Speaker 1:51:12
it within
Unknown Speaker 1:51:15
the last month what is separated from
Unknown Speaker 1:51:20
you know, what is property separated from structure is there different things
Unknown Speaker 1:51:26
includes the site
Unknown Speaker 1:51:29
something landscape
Unknown Speaker 1:51:34
is cycled out of structure may be considered restore
Unknown Speaker 1:51:39
property or something along
Unknown Speaker 1:51:41
that will do. So, is there
Unknown Speaker 1:51:46
a word here listening? Now, I.
Unknown Speaker 1:52:06
didn’t change anything in here.
Unknown Speaker 1:52:13
It’s still the same procedure for designation and the change there.
Unknown Speaker 1:52:27
Okay, I highlighted these because I know for learner Council liaison, he had some concerns about the percentage. So we actually say, right now designation procedures for historic districts, let’s include the consent of the owners of 25%. Typically, I’ve seen 50.
Unknown Speaker 1:52:49
That’s just to make the application. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the approval is 51%. Is there some source? You can start the process if you have consent from 25%. But I don’t think it’s
Unknown Speaker 1:53:08
zero source for those two numbers,
Unknown Speaker 1:53:11
is 51%.
Unknown Speaker 1:53:13
They’re kind of widely used and accepted numbers. Every ordinance I’ve seen
Unknown Speaker 1:53:21
for approval and
Unknown Speaker 1:53:23
inaction in the district. It’s either 51% or 50%. Plus, you’re
Unknown Speaker 1:53:27
gonna get a suggestion, though, that we had to work with local local school districts, because using there already is sort of different. So yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:53:39
Right here, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:53:43
That’s what this is really about.
Unknown Speaker 1:53:46
Creating local historical logging on historic district. Yeah. Good point.
Unknown Speaker 1:53:58
We provide a little bit more details on design guidelines that they have to be consistent with Secretary of Interior standards, frequent historic properties required for all local districts.
Unknown Speaker 1:54:13
To ask the question, just because the development of design guidelines is complicated. Is it should it be a requirement that if you want a local district you have to have guidelines? Or could you have a local district whose guidelines are simply the secretary of compliance with the Secretary of Interior standards? Because that would take a pretty significant cost, the cost to develop a set of architectural guidelines will be high. Is it adequate enough to because basically, that approval is going to come back to this commission. which theoretically should be familiar with those guidelines? So is it necessary that someone could decide to? In addition, you know, propose guidelines, but not necessarily
Unknown Speaker 1:55:14
make it mandatory? It’s optional.
Unknown Speaker 1:55:18
It’s not wire
Unknown Speaker 1:55:19
suprathreshold. Design guidelines
Unknown Speaker 1:55:21
are essential elements,
Unknown Speaker 1:55:23
if desired, shall be developed by the
Unknown Speaker 1:55:28
additional guidelines are optional, but this is actually the
Unknown Speaker 1:55:33
comma. After owners
Unknown Speaker 1:55:36
know. Yeah, that is weird. That’s weird. Well, so either way, it’s unclear.
Unknown Speaker 1:55:44
Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing about having any what I’ve read is that you basically, it’s the Secretary of Interior guidelines. However, if the owners decide that they want to come up with additional guidance, and working with the staff and others, they can do that. That’s all part of the protocol. But if they don’t want to do it, they just use the
Unknown Speaker 1:56:06
I’m not sure I agree. So it says design guidelines, with the Secretary of Interior standards shall be required for all districts. So it doesn’t say that it implies that the design guidelines should be created, let’s
Unknown Speaker 1:56:23
be clear that Secretary of Interior standards are not designed guidelines. They are a set of 10 criteria that you need to apply to have appropriate preservation practices in place. So the design guidelines are going to be do you want to allow three storey buildings in your district? Do you want to have at least 25% of the front facade of a building the brick? Do you want to allow stucco? How do you know what are the windows need to look why?
Unknown Speaker 1:56:59
Craftsman
Unknown Speaker 1:57:02
additive? In other words, are the interior guidelines. And the guidelines? We’re talking about the condition additional guidelines? Or could they wind up being somewhat inconsistent?
Unknown Speaker 1:57:14
No, you would have to make the design guidelines, which is the more specific to your neighborhood to your district comply with the Secretary of Interior?
Unknown Speaker 1:57:24
So they’re always different for every district?
Unknown Speaker 1:57:27
Yeah, exactly. Every district would have their own potential.
Unknown Speaker 1:57:33
Second discussion, that district doesn’t want to have any additional stuff. And they should deal with this first sentence, then, yeah, then they shouldn’t get some accents. Because they don’t you say that? Because the Secretary of Interior doesn’t have gotten design guidelines. So how can design guidelines be consistent? They can
Unknown Speaker 1:57:57
they have to your design guidelines have to comply with the larger, more conceptual? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:58:08
So it can’t deviate? Essentially. So
Unknown Speaker 1:58:11
the second set of guidelines consistent first paragraph, the Secretary of Interior standards for treatment shall be required for all just don’t don’t go any further. Is that? Is that okay? Right. That’s what I was asking. What is that makes sense by itself? Because you were talking about criteria before its criteria and not guidelines? And I’m just wondering, the second,
Unknown Speaker 1:58:36
forget everything. That last that last? The additional guidelines is a little bit confused and
Unknown Speaker 1:58:45
just read the first two sentences. Are those Okay? Okay. The only issue is, what
Unknown Speaker 1:58:56
do you mean by additional guidelines as
Unknown Speaker 1:58:57
well, I would just question is that what if a neighborhood wants to do more than what the Secretary of Interior guidelines require?
Unknown Speaker 1:59:09
Additional requirements from the secretary standards are standards that are guidelines they’re trying? They’re guiding principles. So there’s no black and white in those secondary interiors?
Unknown Speaker 1:59:20
It is you just have to be consistent with the Secretary. All right. So then, this whole additional guidelines is,
Unknown Speaker 1:59:33
I mean, that would be I mean, I would suggest that maybe the additional guidelines are if you want to really get down into like, percentages of, you know, brick that you want and what type of stucco I mean, you could get real specific if you really want to prove it.
Unknown Speaker 1:59:57
Because I’m still Wondering whether the additional guidelines are intended to be additive to the design guidelines? Well, you’re talking about here, design guidelines. And that’s, I can understand that but additional guidelines, additional toilet.
Unknown Speaker 2:00:19
So the Secretary of the Interior standard says that if you have historic property, here are some rules for making sure that you are maintaining as a historic property. Right. What we’re talking about here is like, Okay, so I’ve got these rules. If I need to replace my windows, I need to replace them in Conde right. But my neighborhood might say, you know, on top of that, the Secretary of Interior guidelines aren’t really general. But if we’re having a historic district, so we know how to treat the houses in there that are that are already historic
Unknown Speaker 2:00:53
Windows from Windows was about.
Unknown Speaker 2:00:57
Right? Because then you could do additional rules like, well, for new for new construction, you’re not allowed to build a 15 storey. You know, modern apartment building, you can only do you know, four unit
Unknown Speaker 2:01:15
craps.
Unknown Speaker 2:01:17
Right, so and then, but they don’t have to be crazy assistance with what else is in
Unknown Speaker 2:01:22
there. So this is all awesome. And I want to keep going. But so what I’d like to do two things, I’d like to put this on the agenda for our next special Flag. Flag, this refers to discussion, because I don’t want to spend the whole afternoon talking about it. But I just want to get the overview, it is
Unknown Speaker 2:01:41
important because it will come up in relation to that. So let’s let’s keep rolling. But no, they’re going to come back to this. All right. Here’s the 51%. I’m not gonna get into that. That’s when we actually prove that this
Unknown Speaker 2:01:59
sentence, by the way, resilient says we can provide for historic preservation. We talked about it earlier.
Unknown Speaker 2:02:12
Yeah. Yeah. All the stuff that’s gonna highlight air, and it’s all in the ordinance now. Right. Right. And what is yours truly, at the end, there’s a lot of percentage will pass by.
Unknown Speaker 2:02:36
Okay, so here’s kind of the meat of the matter for demolitions. And we change the wording of the title to review a permits for demolition, meaning partial or total and moving up on designated structures. So those that aren’t landmarks or within the historic local historic district. And the idea that I think, are outside counsel was saying, you know, you’re not, because they’re not in a district, those folks don’t necessarily know that these restrictions are on their property. So we’re just hoping they come in with a permanent, and we say, oh, wait a minute, you have some potential. And we’re gonna delay your permanent to demolish partially or gold until we go through a process to see if it’s worthy for landmark status for within the district.
Unknown Speaker 2:03:33
Could they have taken the property? Meaning walk the property without notice? Yes. Right.
Unknown Speaker 2:03:41
Theoretically, the It’s a landmark it was shown on the title.
Unknown Speaker 2:03:45
However, my answer is no. Not designated.
Unknown Speaker 2:03:54
Welcome. I say how are you swing?
Unknown Speaker 2:04:05
Thrown but about your setbacks when you buy? I mean, there’s a lot of stuff you.
Unknown Speaker 2:04:15
Difference. This is two major.
Unknown Speaker 2:04:18
I’m in an RSM. So if I knew enough, I could look at the zoning code and see what the rules are. But if you had no idea that you’re potentially 50 years old, and you meet some criteria, that new rules apply. So anyhow, the only reason I’m saying that is what I’ve tried to do in this first paragraph is winnow down that 50 years old, into an area and I looked at a number of surveys that were done in the original town site, and reference this period of significance for long lat, which was at 98 to 1953. I don’t really know why, but it was probably a grow period for the city of Longmont. So it reduces now down that area of properties that potentially would have to be go through this process of if they’re messing with it. It’s kind of a big change. I’m hoping that legal say out Well, now you’ve reduced potential liability to the city.
Unknown Speaker 2:05:26
But can I ask if that survey thing you looked at was pregnancy?
Unknown Speaker 2:05:32
I looked at the individual surveys on the landmark properties. That’s where I got it from. And it was a consistent theme. And I don’t know if it was all written by the same person. But I don’t know.
Unknown Speaker 2:05:49
Because sometimes if a period of significance was actually present, you just say 50 years from today. So if I wrote something for today, but then we’re having a discussion in five years of tenure. Yeah, yeah, that might take him two three. So just just wondering,
Unknown Speaker 2:06:09
are we going to have another area of significance
Unknown Speaker 2:06:10
just now. Right.
Unknown Speaker 2:06:25
I mean, that’s that’s kind of why we use the 50 years or older is because with a product moves appropriately, with designs, so that you’re not having to revise this every five years to like, bump it up again, to whatever day
Unknown Speaker 2:06:43
it shouldn’t be, right?
Unknown Speaker 2:06:46
Just thought
Unknown Speaker 2:06:47
that comes back to the possibility of sending letters so that every year somebody new properties that become part of this will be get a letter informing 10 Interesting, because do things become significant in one year?
Unknown Speaker 2:07:05
Possible, everything becomes significant within the know. I mean, it depends on what the period of significance is. I’d say it like what the determination open why this period was significant. Like if you’re just talking about a building, and it’s beautiful, and it’s a perfect example of, you know, playing craps, but architecture, and it was built in, you know, 1910, that its period of significance is 1910. It’s not 10 until whenever it gets right that year. So there’s a reason for a period of significance. But as Holly said, with sort of larger periods of stuff, yes, they are required by the national registry to stop at 5050 years. But you would then do an update
Unknown Speaker 2:07:57
or not argue, because this particular limit is on the original town site, that it makes sense to put a cap at the pet.
Unknown Speaker 2:08:09
So then you’re saying that nothing done? Nothing built from 1903 Onwards and is or will ever be.
Unknown Speaker 2:08:24
buildings downtown are
Unknown Speaker 2:08:37
slightly destroyers, some of them are 4951 or 53. But then how will we deal with this stuff from like, 1954? Right, like, so you might be making, we might be making neighborhoods that we already have some identification that they’re probably historically significant, maybe throwing barriers in our way to create a historic district or a conservation. I don’t know if this applies to
Unknown Speaker 2:09:09
those who only played demolition, but your point taken that we could lose resources, right? Yes, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 2:09:15
Another point is, it says from 1898 to 93, my house was built making 86 There’s one other corner 1872 the building down the street years built making 65 and she started making 65 pounds 1865
Unknown Speaker 2:09:36
that number came from the surveys that were done in the original townsite the individual surveys that were done for landmarks.
Unknown Speaker 2:09:45
My landmark is 1886 So I
Unknown Speaker 2:09:49
do people that would take our oldest building in town.
Unknown Speaker 2:09:56
building in town I would think which is 65
Unknown Speaker 2:09:59
or approaches we’d go back to the Fitbit years stronger determination criteria is very well known, because still,
Unknown Speaker 2:10:10
I would think I still in the period of significance, I don’t know what makes this significant. Others not significant. But yeah. 18 Ideally significant, I would think 1872.
Unknown Speaker 2:10:19
I mean, your survey plan
Unknown Speaker 2:10:28
why?
Unknown Speaker 2:10:30
That’s what I was wondering whether the theory of significance is defined. There, there’s at 98 to 93, or whether those two periods of time might be different. Again, it’s about why it’s written.
Unknown Speaker 2:10:50
I don’t know why. I don’t know why it starts at 1898. Seems quite, quite Yes.
Unknown Speaker 2:10:56
Can you take out the date Scout
Unknown Speaker 2:10:58
at night, you know,
Unknown Speaker 2:11:00
period isn’t too wishy washy? Well, if you can’t take up dates and period of significance has to be an accurate representation of those dates.
Unknown Speaker 2:11:11
Yeah, boys, take out the dates. And don’t check out the period of significance trying Oh,
Unknown Speaker 2:11:18
you’re not saving up period
Unknown Speaker 2:11:23
to 50 years prior to the prisons. That’s what I would say.
Unknown Speaker 2:11:28
That counsel is not going to happen to that
Unknown Speaker 2:11:32
was a stronger case to flip restrictions, properties that are not part of a destination. It narrows, well, there are probably an error the time
Unknown Speaker 2:11:47
down the mortgage starter in case you have but doesn’t serve the prevent, it also gets free range. Oh, I’m six months out of that. So I can tear my house down. It’s no big deal. It’s yeah, it’s tricky.
Unknown Speaker 2:12:10
survey plan would help determine right
Unknown Speaker 2:12:12
here, it seems like we have to be present and actually have a
Unknown Speaker 2:12:19
council approve some dollars on survey and this will push this out.
Unknown Speaker 2:12:30
Okay, all right. So then we had the language before that outside the original city subdivision and maybe this should be the answer. And it’s identified in an architectural cultural resource survey district nomination doctrine preservation plan considered eligible for designation, then those also are captured in the demolition requirements. So the original town site will drop the area of significance, we could just go with paragraph two. It’s been identified somehow,
Unknown Speaker 2:13:06
is the word consider? Well, no. In other words, is there some basis for these? Consider considering where they’re documenting
Unknown Speaker 2:13:16
these documents? So we’re
Unknown Speaker 2:13:24
considered eligible, that’s fine. What do you consider
Unknown Speaker 2:13:29
findings written in these documents? They need a number of criteria
Unknown Speaker 2:13:33
already. Here, just follow the herbs. Not talking about property restructure that is just one word that has been designated. Talking about loans considered eligible for that’s why there’s been no designation they’ve never applied for it. But it’s considered eligible.
Unknown Speaker 2:14:06
Research. Yeah, that’s illegal. That’s illegal designation at the federal student loan. Not not necessarily at that local level. So we have literally hundreds of 1000s of eligible properties in our database that have never been listed to the National
Unknown Speaker 2:14:23
Historical service.
Unknown Speaker 2:14:25
But you have to consider them.
Unknown Speaker 2:14:29
eligible under this, this idea of coming to come into the devilish roof.
Unknown Speaker 2:14:40
Again, I would suggest that we broaden out and get and save the super detail for the next commission hearing because we’ve got a limited amount of time. Get through the whole of one’s thoughts here,
Unknown Speaker 2:14:54
and we can certainly agree that it says
Unknown Speaker 2:14:58
at the end of the paragraph a And that meets the following criteria, you mean meet any of the following criteria, not all of the
Unknown Speaker 2:15:07
way it’s written, it’s all on
Unknown Speaker 2:15:09
all of those. Okay, I definitely want to bring this back to,
Unknown Speaker 2:15:14
ya know, part of this is the get brought to this time here today is to get a broad sense, get refreshed, so that we can all have some thoughts about what we want to dive into in the next commission meeting, which is next week. So it should remain fresh, but I want to make sure we have looked at the whole so that everybody’s got thoughts about what they want to bring back. And that was 70.
Unknown Speaker 2:15:41
Missing a T in paragraphs of paragraph two is picked up can’t be rehabilitated. Now design guidelines. What I’ve read in some of these other codes is that you can’t just demolish a piece of ground without a plan of what you’re going to replace it with. And that plan should meet the design guidelines. So that’s kind of a big question for me, does it even make sense for the city to promulgate design guidelines? If they’re going to be different? In all cases? I’ve attempted to do that here.
Unknown Speaker 2:16:34
Again, it’s kind of a, you know, a layered system, like the city can have some design in general than general design guidelines, and that each neighborhood would have that additional piece of their own. Their own design guidelines to add on to that
Unknown Speaker 2:16:50
would always be additional. Right,
Unknown Speaker 2:16:52
which exists now the more current code has certain architectural guidelines for various neighborhoods, that specific percentage of literal and all kinds of stuff. Yes, mostly.
Unknown Speaker 2:17:15
We’ll talk about that. So and we do have a section that talks about architectural based on types of structure throughout the city. And what I was thinking here is we could embed those general design guidelines within that section of the land development code that says for properties within the historic, you know, one mile town site, these rules shall apply, right? Okay, I highlighted some of these timeframes are all political. So the process now he’s got a big change, basically says a staff liaison and a council member appointed by the council shall review all demo that meets these criteria. Now, not a great system for anybody involved. So what we chair change that to is the staff liaison, and I designated the chair, the HPC, or their designee will meet and do the initial review demolition permits, and make a decision. Most codes do say 10 business days, we’re kind of playing with, you know, reasonable timeframe to give us some flexibility. But I think if it’s a matter of three people sitting down, or two people sitting down and reviewing it, we probably could stick to the 10 business days, two weeks. And they basically decide whether there is something worthy of protection, which would then kick it to the full board to review the application.
Unknown Speaker 2:18:52
And I would guess most of these are going to be really obvious.
Unknown Speaker 2:18:57
Unless it’s very minor demo of of over here, something on the rear. But yeah, anything that’s noticeable, I think you’ll be kicking to the historic preservation. I highlighted the timeframe of when we have to have that hearing. Just I want to look at see if we’re able to do that with our notice requirements. But basically, then it goes to the HBC and you decide whether the permit should be granted or not. And the way I have written that, if not, it goes directly to city council. Basically. I guess the question here is we could just send them regardless, the city council. I don’t know that they would say Oh, you shouldn’t have granted that demolition permit for that. So I don’t think that’s an issue and instead, I probably would add, that property owner could appeal but I can’t imagine somebody appealing The fact that you so, yeah, but right now it’s if you deny it, it goes to city council. If you approve it, it’s done.
Unknown Speaker 2:20:18
We owner’s consent there is predicated on the owner having had notice of the potential limitation when he or she bought the property.
Unknown Speaker 2:20:35
Almost certainly, because
Unknown Speaker 2:20:38
well, yeah, this says it could be designated landmark without the consent of the owner, which means that goes to another section that says, It’s so historically significant. There’s a process to bring the legal taking.
Unknown Speaker 2:20:56
One argument where we have a second, we have code language to that effects in
Unknown Speaker 2:21:02
existing code right now. And it’s in most of these codes. But we certainly heard that term.
Unknown Speaker 2:21:13
Sets sounds like I’m not an expert in this particular area. But that sounds like a problem. If there was no notice, and notices of two kinds of situation, it’s actual notice or what we call constructive notice. That is the person taking the property? How would would know if they had done reasonable research, given all the facts and circumstances and they would have constructive notice whether they had actual notice are nothing. But if the situation here is neither actual nor constructive, notice that problem.
Unknown Speaker 2:21:57
That’s why I rarely ever.
Unknown Speaker 2:22:00
That’s good.
Unknown Speaker 2:22:04
I mean, sometimes Yeah. Sometimes. So I think we erased everything. We talked early on about sending out notices Yeah. becomes really vital here. You’re You’re absolutely right.
Unknown Speaker 2:22:23
And there’s other code changes that occur that everyone who’s a property owner is affected by. And so this would just be a question for zoning changes across the board is something you want to
Unknown Speaker 2:22:35
envision one month exactly.
Unknown Speaker 2:22:40
I remember getting a notice
Unknown Speaker 2:22:43
some of those kinds of the nature of public interest. So you can post acquisition have some limitations on your property because of public interest concerns. This is not now
Unknown Speaker 2:23:07
one if it’s not a Republican, yes, it’s
Unknown Speaker 2:23:18
kicked out of the tournament. They are very strict. Standard Work so you’re stuck here. We’ve never been
Unknown Speaker 2:23:35
tested like that. This was
Unknown Speaker 2:23:47
and we actually were helped by outside counsel to draft this language. The city and fence preserved from deliver inadvertent neglect exterior portions of designated properties and all interior portions there of that, I guess, that structurally they harmed or speed up the deterioration, no owner lessee occupant of any historically designated property. Again, now we’re saying designated properties. And that’s right, right.
Unknown Speaker 2:24:27
So there is notice, yes. And then enforcement and penalties which we didn’t have before. This kicks you into another section of the code that basically says, If you violate the this section of the code, you are potentially subject to a $500 Fine 90 days in jail. It’s not great. But we also add it in. You could also be blacklisted as far as permits for a period Good time. We have seen in other codes, some of them are five. So what, five years? Yeah. Yeah, they just an internal discussion with that. Maybe that was okay.
Unknown Speaker 2:25:15
Well, I think that that piece is more important than the five. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 2:25:26
Anybody go to jail, like this
Unknown Speaker 2:25:30
template, demolish the site sitting there for five years, and you’re gonna have to deal with irrelevant.
Unknown Speaker 2:25:37
So that’s it. That’s where we are. But I know you’re seeing it for the first time. And we can discuss it. Continue to discussion.
Unknown Speaker 2:25:49
All right. Well, thank you. I think we’re feels like we are making some progress. So we’ll take a few minutes, we have left to marshal data here. So as a recap for action items, so we’re going to go to the first order here. So we are going to have this demolition ordinance on our six on the agenda for the sixth. And so we’ll dive in some more deep discussions of some of the items that we had to kind of gloss over. I do want to keep the fat preservation plan slash survey on our agenda. And so if, if you have any updates, what can we find out between now and Thursday? About? Soon, great way to do it the least. But we can find out what we can expect for costs. That was double.
Unknown Speaker 2:26:59
I don’t know. Three very heavy reviews that are development reviews that I’ve got to finish up.
Unknown Speaker 2:27:09
Again. Let’s at least talk through that and a little more
Unknown Speaker 2:27:16
to get a habit just as an open discussion. We know some people.
Unknown Speaker 2:27:24
So let’s just keep that keep pushing. And then also what Yeah, budget process and timing, right. So that we don’t miss
Unknown Speaker 2:27:38
it feels kind of like the certificate American thing is sure of slid into or out of a presentation plan in terms of what you want. And then I don’t know if we need to follow up too much on the conservation overlay Historic District fees, and I think that’s a good informational, and there’s some things happening, but we don’t need to rely on our for that. So then the only other one, that would be a potential action would be and then this is probably worthwhile. If there’s anything that we want to do. As far as preservation month, which will be in May, we’ll have it on this agenda in April, and maybe I liked the idea of the tower. I don’t, it’s not going to something be something that we can probably process that quickly.
Unknown Speaker 2:28:37
To get into paper.
Unknown Speaker 2:28:38
Right. Right. Um, so even if it were we can talk a little bit about how to make that start and if anybody has any other ideas about just some sort of small gesture for
Unknown Speaker 2:28:50
preservation month, let’s talk about it this immediate do something the newspaper
Unknown Speaker 2:28:55
unless we tell them to do an interview with you. Square Mile you’re joking. No. Serious.
Unknown Speaker 2:29:17
Going on, like
Unknown Speaker 2:29:18
we do a proclamation.
Unknown Speaker 2:29:20
Yeah. Yeah. I
Unknown Speaker 2:29:21
was gonna say, proclamation of in this short notice. I mean, it’s very hard pressed to relate to anything beyond getting a proclamation with Western. being completely honest here.
Unknown Speaker 2:29:38
Could we get a copy of that letter that I gave you outside for historic preservation? Square Mile? It’s a lot of letters. But I mean,
Unknown Speaker 2:29:51
I don’t know. I think it’s going to be important to kind of hammer out the demolition code because we wanted to kind of act as known as for that and that’s mine. Feeling
Unknown Speaker 2:30:00
the same frustration
Unknown Speaker 2:30:05
to people’s husbands is pretty short and Brian’s last day was yesterday so we are realistically damn a very significant person so I’m sure the answer is
Unknown Speaker 2:30:24
probably no yeah
Unknown Speaker 2:30:31
so
Unknown Speaker 2:30:33
we’re gonna maintain our high expectations
Unknown Speaker 2:30:41
you’re listening, getting
Unknown Speaker 2:30:51
to know the planner in store who does the district presentation, I assume. But she worked for me and you can certainly talk to her about it. You can call Jenny and ask her what the total was. Email me the last time
Unknown Speaker 2:31:24
they’ll get back to me my
Unknown Speaker 2:31:29
consulting dollars within a reasonable range.
Unknown Speaker 2:31:36
Okay. All right. Great. Great. Well, thank you all for showing up. Thank you staff for taking time out of your weekend.
Unknown Speaker 2:31:49
Yes,
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