Historic Preservation Board Meeting – February 2023
Note: The following is the output of transcribing from a video recording. Although the transcription, which was done with software, is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or [software] transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the meeting, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
Read along below:
Unknown Speaker 0:05
Let’s see the mic does appear to be working. So that’s good. All right, let’s go ahead and call to order. Our February 2 2023. Historic Preservation Commission meeting. Can we have the roll please?
Unknown Speaker 0:27
Commissioner Sibley Here. Commissioner Fenster. Commissioner guy you here. Chairman lane here. Commission Commissioner Jacoby. And Commissioner Barnard.
Unknown Speaker 0:44
Thank you. Thank you. So we do have a quorum. Next item on the agenda would be the approval from the December 2022. Meeting. Do any of the commissioners have any comments or corrections? For those minutes? Hearing none, I would entertain a motion. Right. We have a motion to approve the minutes from Commissioner Barnard and a second from Commissioner Jacoby. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none. The minutes are passed unanimously. Next would be report from the chair. So I don’t have anything in particular to note other than welcome, everyone to 2023 and we do have a new member. Commissioner Fenster here to my right, so welcome, Commissioner. For because we do have one new commissioner, I’ll do a quick little intro on how comments work and the technology we have. Y’all remember that? During the meeting, if you would like to make a comment or statement if you press the tab on your microphone, which then alerts me that you need to speak but give me a second because I have to activate your mic in order for you to be recorded and we do want the mic to be on so that the recording picks it up all right. That’s all I have. Do we have commission communique anything from HP? See staff plan is Schumacher.
Unknown Speaker 2:43
Welcome commissioners. I haven’t been here for a while but good to see you all again. I’m Brian Schumacher, with city planning staff. Unfortunately, Jennifer’s under the weather. So I’m filling in for her and our planning director Glen van Nijmegen is had to attend an RTD meeting this afternoon. So he wasn’t able to attend the meeting either. So they send their condolences and so fortunately, you’re stuck with me. So, but I did want to mention a few things. Obviously, some of you have registered for the saving places conference. That is next week in Boulder. I think there was the online and in person options. I don’t know which of those each of the commissioners that have signed up selected, but I believe my understanding aside from Jennifer that Mr. Lane Commissioner Jacoby Commissioner Barnard, and Commissioner Sibley have all registered for the conference and I believe probably Commissioner guy who is maybe also attending. Oh, really? Okay. Okay, understand. I understand Commissioner lane that you’re still looking for the kind of your registration information. We’ll make a note of that. And I’ll contact Jennifer and, and Jane to see if we can follow up on that. And let you know tomorrow. Great. Thanks. Yes, Commissioner Fenster.
Unknown Speaker 4:13
You send them material materials, also.
Unknown Speaker 4:16
Yeah, I’ll check and see I believe. I’ll check about the registration if you’re interested is next week. I believe it’s February 8 through the 10th. I think there’s an like I said, it’s in person. There’s also an online option. I don’t know all the details. And so I’m not attending but we can check on that and set for that information to you. I don’t know if registration has closed. I believe it probably hasn’t, but we can certainly check on that. Thank you. You bet. Sorry, I’m just taking it out here. Just dead airspace. Sorry. Yeah, the thing I wanted to mention was did receive yesterday from Lindsey History Colorado. She’s the CLG representative coordinator. Some information about funding opportunities. And if you haven’t received that will forward that on to the Commission regarding different grant opportunities. But then there’s also information about additional training besides the saving places conference, I believe in February, it sounds like there’s going to be two tax credit training sessions for CLGs. If anybody’s interested. They haven’t specified a date yet. But we’ll when we get that information, we can forward that on to the commission, if any of the commissioners are interested in that looks like there will also be restarting the CLG regional forums this year, again, no dates or locations yet, but when we get that information will forward that on if a commissioners are interested in attending any of those sessions. And aside from that, as you’re probably all aware, May has typically been historic preservation month. And we can talk maybe a little bit about that under the retreat topic, discussion. So I think that’s all I have to ramble on about for now. So thank you. Great,
Unknown Speaker 6:12
thank you. Any questions for planners, Schumacher from the Commission?
Unknown Speaker 6:20
I have one.
Unknown Speaker 6:23
Our Inanna put you on the spot. Unfortunately, I would put Jennifer on the spot if she were here. So the first order, we were excited to learn last year that she was going to have some more time to dedicate to planning or to historic preservation because you found some planners, and her first order of business was a grant application for surveys. And do you have any idea if that if there’s been any progress on that?
Unknown Speaker 6:49
I don’t, but I can certainly check with her when she’s back in the office. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 6:54
You can let her know. We’re gonna put her on the hot seat next.
Unknown Speaker 6:56
Yeah. So I will make a note of that. Okay, sorry. Thank you taking notes.
Unknown Speaker 7:07
Thank you. And that’s it. Okay, thank you. All right, thanks. Okay, then we’ll move on to our next section is public invited to be heard. So this would be anyone in the audience who would like to speak to something that is not on the agenda? If you are here for an agenda item? We’ll have you come up during that particular time, sir. Is there anyone in the audience that’s here to speak about something not on our agenda? Seeing none, thank you. I’ll go ahead and close the public invited to be heard. All right now we are on to annual business. So the first meeting of every calendar year we need to go through and elect officers chair and vice chair, approve our meeting dates and times location, agenda, posting location and approval bylaws. So we’ll take these one at a time. The first order of business is the election of the chairperson. If there’s anyone sitting here that would really love to jump up here and take this position over you’re certainly welcome to. If If there isn’t anyone who really loves to do this, I will consent to serve again. But I am not going to get in the way of anyone who wants to do this.
Unknown Speaker 8:34
Read is go green and stop.
Unknown Speaker 8:39
While it was not hard enough already, so I will nominate Steve to be chair again. Do I have a second second?
Unknown Speaker 8:49
Okay, we have a nomination to elect Commissioner lane as the Chair nominated by get my interest. Commissioner guy you and seconded by Commissioner Fenster. All in favor? Opposed? I’ll not oppose. All right, and then Vice Chair, do we have any nominations for vice chair? Commissioner guy who has served this role for the last couple of years, but I’m sure she’d be also happy to pass the torch. For anyone who doesn’t know the vice chair is really essentially the person who takes over this role if I’m not here, or if I need to recuse myself from some portion of the hearing. Now accepting nominations
Unknown Speaker 10:01
I thought I had somebody.
Unknown Speaker 10:03
I nominate Commissioner guy used to serve as Vice Chair of the historic preservation commission.
Unknown Speaker 10:09
Second. Okay. We have a nomination from Commissioner Barnard and seconded by Commissioner Fenster to, for Commissioner guy you to serve as Vice Chair All in favor. Any opposed? None. Welcome back. All right. Approval of meeting dates and times. Our hearings are the first Thursday of every month at five o’clock. Did anyone if anybody’s had a chance to kind of run through the schedule, we sometimes have conflicts around the Fourth of July and Labor Day, I did not see any, the Fourth of July. Week is the sixth though it’s after the holiday. I think that would be post holiday weekend. So I don’t know that we have a conflict with any of the typical dates.
Unknown Speaker 11:04
Does that include summer?
Unknown Speaker 11:06
It does include summer, we run every first Thursday of every every month. The only reason we would not have a meeting would be if there were nothing on the agenda. Occasionally meetings do get canceled for the month. Yeah. Thanks.
Unknown Speaker 11:30
I noticed that we planned through December 7. And I also noticed obviously, that we weren’t able to meet in January because it was very close to the January I guess, because it was close to the January holidays. January 1, New Year’s and stuff like that. Should we maybe take a look at January and just see if we’re going to be able to do that. If we want to move it to maybe the second Thursday, January so we don’t miss a meeting.
Unknown Speaker 12:00
Yeah, I think honestly, we missed it. Just because we didn’t have an agenda item to discuss and we weren’t prepared. I’m not sure staff was ready to dive into some of the retreat deals we have normally met on the first Thursday in January.
Unknown Speaker 12:21
And I think that’s something we could handle as we get closer during the year as well, since it’s really technically the next calendar year.
Unknown Speaker 12:38
Well, I would move that we approve the dates and times as suggested. Second
Unknown Speaker 12:48
I’ve got a motion from Commissioner Jacoby and did here, Commissioner fencers second first. So that will have all of our meetings will be on the first Thursday of each month at five o’clock. All in favor, please say aye.
Unknown Speaker 13:06
Unknown Speaker 13:07
Any opposed? None. That motion passes. I’m gonna lump the next two in I probably could have done the first these three together. meeting location and meeting agenda posting location. recording secretary Yoast, could you remind us where these where the posting locations are?
Unknown Speaker 13:34
Okay, so they’re they’re physically posted at town hall and of course they’re on
Unknown Speaker 13:39
online. Yeah. So the official location is on the webpage and supplemental is physical locations here and civic center. Right. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 13:49
So the meeting Look, our meeting location would actually be here all through the year. And those posting locations would be as noted on the web and physically on the building. Do any commissioners have any comments around those?
Unknown Speaker 14:08
If not, I’ll take a motion to approve. All right.
Unknown Speaker 14:16
So we have a motion to approve the meeting location here and the meeting agenda, posting locations as currently existing. The motion is from Commissioner Sibley and seconded by Commissioner Fenster. All in favor please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? None. Thank you. And last item of our annual business is the approval of bylaws which were included in the packet. It’s fairly straightforward stuff just talks mostly about things we just did. Anyone have any comments or questions around the bylaws?
Unknown Speaker 14:59
Oh, Get a motion to approve
Unknown Speaker 15:07
let me get your
Unknown Speaker 15:08
eye on the sections seven rules of procedure says all up meeting shall be conducted. Under Robert’s Rules of Order. There might be something in the bylaws, that calls for a different way of handling something. Usually when I’ve seen a provision like this, it says, all meetings shall be conducted according to Robert’s Rules, Robert’s Rules of Order, except as otherwise provided in these bylaws. Or in the city or city, or in the municipal code, something to that effect. I mean, whatever we do here has to go back to the staff to work on and we can’t vote on it till next week. I know that’s may just be a technical thing. But it’s the kind of thing that if it does come up during the year, it’s much more difficult if we haven’t resolved it now.
Unknown Speaker 16:03
So if there were a I guess I’m not 100% sure I’m following. But if if that paragraph said according to Robert’s Rules of Order, except as otherwise noted, in the bylaws, where else in the bylaws would describe what an exception to that, and we’d need to add an exception to that. And
Unknown Speaker 16:26
just if if there could be something the way we amend the bylaws, for instance, might be different from Robert’s Rules of Order, or it might not provide for amendments in the same way we do. And there also might be something in the municipal code code, which says that we have to do certain things a certain way that doesn’t usually come up. But if it does come up, I’d want to, you know, we would, we would naturally do it that way. But this way, the what we would actually do in practice would conform to what our bylaws are.
Unknown Speaker 17:03
I think, if you want it to, and actually we’re probably not following Robert’s Rules of Order right now, because we have a motion on the table, and we didn’t have a second and we’re not discussing the motion and we didn’t have the motion fail and all that other fun stuff. Just so just so everybody knows that I’m actually aware of that. Nevertheless, we tend to be slightly less formal here. If your suggestion is to just simply amend that one particular sentence to except as otherwise provided for in the bylaws, I think that could happen here now. So, so moved. Okay. So we’re going to, we’re going to withdraw I’m going to executively withdraw, Commissioner guys motion. And then we’ll essentially have a motion to approve the bylaws with the change to Section seven all meetings shall be conducted according to Robert’s Rules of Order and amended, except as otherwise provided in the bylaws. Is that correct? These bylaws in these bylaws. Okay, so I have a motion to have a second. Second motion by Commissioner Fenster and seconded by Commissioner Barnard. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? None. All right, that motion carries. Thank you. And luckily, we don’t have to do that for another year. All right. Now we’ll move on to the actual meat of this evening. We have a public hearing for 902 Fifth Avenue, Earl Sprague house a certificate of appropriateness for replacement of second storey windows. Do we have a staff
Unknown Speaker 19:04
report? Sorry, I don’t have a lot of background on this. I looked through the staff report today. actually went out yesterday afternoon and took a few more pictures to add it to this slideshow that Jennifer prepared. So just bear with me, obviously. So we have a request for a certificate of appropriateness for the historic landmark. The Earl Sprague house at 902 Fifth Avenue. It was looks like it was designated as a historic landmark in 1987. And four just as a reminder for the commission anytime there is a exterior modification to a historic landmark property it does require approval by the Commission have a history of a certificate of appropriateness and So you have before you a request for an exterior modification for window replacement on this historic landmark. And it involves the upper storey windows, as as replacement does not include any the the ground level, ground floor windows. So that said it’s at the northwest corner of Pratt and Fifth Avenue. It’s just to the north of Thompson Park. And the next few slides and they I don’t think there was any kind of pictures of the of the house exterior of the house, in your packet, but I went out and took a few additional pictures late yesterday afternoon, since I knew I was going to be here, spending time with the commission. So just wanted to provide just some context of, of the property, this is from Fifth Avenue, looking at the house, basically in the middle of the street, looking at the north side of the north side elevation, and you can kind of see that upper level window and that dormer area up there. And then this would be kind of a view from the corner on the left side. And then this would be a view of the east side of the house, from Pratt Street on the right side image here. And I can certainly toggle back and forth if you want to move back and forth at all. And then on this slide, this picture is also from Pratt Street, it’s just kind of towards the back of the house showing the back of the house on the left hand image. And then the right hand image, again, is from Fifth Avenue. But it’s kind of the left side or west side of the house, it’s the kind of the best angle I could get trying to show that side of the house as well. So as noted, this is a slide that Jennifer prepared, as I mentioned, the Ozel is to replace the second storey windows with I believe it’s a wood composite window that’s manufactured by a Renewal by Andersen and the same basically style windows style. And I think it’s noted that the applicant indicated and it was indicated in the packet that Jennifer prepared that it’s not clear if the on the age of the windows that are being replaced. And whether or not they are original to the house. Although based on some of the images that are in the picture, they do look fairly old. And I’m not sure and like I said I haven’t had a conversation with the owner, or though representative for Renewal by Andersen to see if they’ve had any if considered window repair as an option as opposed to replacement. So I would certainly ask the applicant, maybe if they could come down after I’m done talking to maybe give some additional background on the options that they explored with respect to looking at we know repair replacement on this on this home. And, and these are I think these were included in your packet as well. It just included kind of images of the existing windows from both the interior and the exterior as well as on
Unknown Speaker 23:45
can see that computers but it doesn’t seem to be working. Yes, they can I both tried to turn the computer off under it. You’re gonna see new kids
Unknown Speaker 23:57
new kids new
Unknown Speaker 24:01
magic button. Did you want me to go back? Oh, no, I’ve
Unknown Speaker 24:05
been kind of creating mine. Okay, I don’t want to come home with a sore neck playing to my wife.
Unknown Speaker 24:12
Again, my understanding on these this slide is that this shows images of the existing windows, both on the interior which is the left image lifted images. The middle images are the exterior existing windows and it looks like there are existing storm windows on the on the on the upper windows as well. And then the RE be
Unknown Speaker 24:32
removed permanently. storm windows.
Unknown Speaker 24:35
So we probably need to get some clarification. I would assume that’s the case. That’s my understanding. Typically with window replacement. We get clarification from either the owner or the I believe there’s a representative from Renewal by Andersen here as well. And then the the other images on the right hand side I believe are the replacement proposed replacement windows and I Again, this is just running through the next few slides or do
Unknown Speaker 25:03
you know whether there are any federal criteria for such replacements?
Unknown Speaker 25:08
Commissioner, if you don’t mind, we’d like to let him have finished his presentation. And then we’ll open it up to comments from commissioners. And you can, you can hammer away at that point. But
Unknown Speaker 25:23
again, this is just another room and I can’t quite read that exactly which which room that is. But obviously, it’s just basically saying perspective views into your extra existing windows and then the proposed replacement windows and I believe these were each in your packet as well as sorry, as well as some additional manufacturer information of that was provided by the applicant and from the from Renewal by Andersen as well. And so, again, I think it would be helpful just to have the applicants provide a little bit more background on some of the additional I mean, kind of what they’ve considered in terms of and why kind of the rationale for making this request. So that concludes my remarks for now, but I’m happy to respond any questions as best I can. Okay, great. Thanks.
Unknown Speaker 26:23
Sure. All right. Let’s open it up to questions from commissioners.
Unknown Speaker 26:29
All right. We’ll, we’ll get it all
Unknown Speaker 26:31
figured out here. Mr. Fenster, you had a question,
Unknown Speaker 26:35
are there any federal criteria for this kind of replacement?
Unknown Speaker 26:42
So typically, and Commissioner guy, you feel free to interject as well. My understanding, and I’m going off memory is based on the Secretary of Interior standards for rehabilitation, on historic properties, that in terms of the guidelines regarding those standards, is that the preference is to repair in place, if at all possible. And then, if not, if, for whatever reason, repair in place is not possible, then the alternative is to replace with like materials and like design and conditioner guy you if you have anything else to add, feel free.
Unknown Speaker 27:31
Know that I mean, that’s the Yeah, you you’re repair, and then you’re replacing kind, and then you
Unknown Speaker 27:43
think everybody hurt me? To say yes, you would repair what you can, obviously. And to be honest, these windows look like they’re in pretty good shape. So I would not see a reason to replace them. But if you had to replace them, you would replace them in kind. And that there’s a scale there of replacing exactly in kind, same materials, same workmanship, etc, etc, to replacing something that does not detract from the building, but could be of new materials if the stock materials are not available anymore. Yeah, so there’s a scale to it. And you know, every, every example is different. Yes, no. I would like to note
Unknown Speaker 28:34
that if the replacement is going to enable the permanent removal of storm windows, that enhances the historic preservation quality.
Unknown Speaker 28:57
All right. Any other questions for staff? And if not, we’ll we’ll have the applicant come down and
Unknown Speaker 29:04
give us some further information. All right.
Unknown Speaker 29:07
Thank you planar Schumacher. And if we had if we can have members of from the applicant, if you’d like to come down. And if you have any remarks prepared, you’re welcome to fire those away. And if not, we can we can just ask questions. But welcome.
Unknown Speaker 29:25
Thank you. My name is Laura burger and I am the applicant and the owner of 902 Fifth Avenue. You don’t have any remarks repaired or prepared so you can go ahead and ask away. All right.
Unknown Speaker 29:39
Commissioner questions. You’re still on?
Unknown Speaker 29:44
Yeah, so I guess my my question is, why are you replacing these windows, they look to be in pretty good shape.
Unknown Speaker 29:51
So extremely drafty. Very cold in the winter one window. We have our desk right by in it is free. Xen beside that window. And then in the summer, of course, it’s really hot up there as well. And you can feel that heat in that cold coming through those windows. Another one we have looked at repairing them. We looked at that in 2020, a person came out, a contractor came out, said that they would give me an estimate, they never got back to me. After multiple calls, there were no returns from those calls. I contacted other historic window companies, and nobody got back to me because it was such a small job, just seven windows and so they weren’t interested in that kind of job. I’m not really nervous about public speaking.
Unknown Speaker 30:54
Just it’s just nobody’s watching. I mean, have you considered putting storm interior and or exterior storm windows on these to help with the draft? Because I have to say, you know, these look to be perhaps not original to the house, but pretty early. You know, anytime you have pin, pin windows, that’s going to be probably at least like 1920s 1930s. Yeah, so you’re talking about, you know, windows that have been on the house for at least probably 70 to 80 years. And so those are made with wood, of a quality that you will never see again. And so to put that wood into the landfill, and replace it with no offense, a composite wood that is not there’s just no way that it’s going to last as long is very unfortunate. And to be the last resort, I would say. And there are definitely things you can do. To help with that, you know, the single pane issue.
Unknown Speaker 32:03
We have not looked at storm windows on the inside or outside of those. But obviously, we want to be able to open them when the weather’s nice and stuff. So I don’t know how that would
Unknown Speaker 32:14
play with their storm windows that
Unknown Speaker 32:16
have oh, well, we have greens. We do have screens on those windows, but I’m not. I guess I’m not sure what you’re suggesting? Well, there’s
Unknown Speaker 32:27
storm windows that have a screen on half of those. So you can lift it up and get the fresh air inside when during the summer. I’ll let somebody else asks.
Unknown Speaker 32:41
So let’s see. Next up, I have Commissioner Jacoby. Thank you. Yeah, I have
Unknown Speaker 32:49
a few questions. You know, are any of the windowpanes poured glass? Can you tell? Do they have that watery kind of appearance?
Unknown Speaker 32:57
Not like the ones downstairs? Do the ones on the first floor? Definitely are but not that? Not that I can tell from upstairs.
Unknown Speaker 33:05
Okay, do any of the windows not open fully at this point?
Unknown Speaker 33:10
There is one window that does not open fully. And a couple windows that open about this much. And then others that open this much right. Like those dormers right beside each other one open this much. The other one is like this much.
Unknown Speaker 33:24
I live with ancient windows, I understand that the problem is here. And I think it says something about jump construction installing from the exterior. Is that correct? Yes. So that’s going to go inside the existing window frame? How much is that going to reduce the size of the windows? Do we have numbers on that
Unknown Speaker 33:45
you can expect anywhere from about a half an inch to an inch size
Unknown Speaker 33:51
on each side? Yeah. So every inch to two inches total on each dimension?
Unknown Speaker 33:56
That’s correct. You’re basically removing the operable portions of the window only while maintaining the old frames that are still there. Because we still do want to basically maintain that historical aspect to the frame and the brick wall and everything. But really, we’re just talking about removing the class. And those old moveable portions of the window.
Unknown Speaker 34:18
Yeah, I was I was trying to read about some of this online and in some things said it doesn’t affect the frame at all. But other sites that I looked at said it you you widen the frame on the exterior when you put in a jump style frame, and it would be a different material. Would you still be using the same wood frame? Can you tell me more about what it’s going to do the frame on the exterior?
Unknown Speaker 34:43
Yeah, there was some more documentation that was provided to the planning committee that actually showed what portions of the window is being removed versus which isn’t. I’m happy to walk over there and just point out with my finger.
Unknown Speaker 34:58
I said there’s gonna yell All lines. But But yeah, again, I’m looking at different websites, some said that it does affect the frame on the exterior and some said it didn’t. And you’re so I wasn’t really clear on that. And other vacation.
Unknown Speaker 35:13
I think I’d want clarification from you on what you’re describing as the frame before I answer your question, because some people use different nomenclature depending on
Unknown Speaker 35:21
Well, anything that you would see outside of the sash. From the exterior, yeah. Would you be affecting that?
Unknown Speaker 35:30
Outside of the sash? Yes, no. Okay, no, that that old frame, all those non moveable parts stay exactly as they are. Now. Can I make another comment about the drafts and stuff like that, too? Is that okay? Sure. So one portion about this is, yes, it’s a single pane window that’s always going to allow for that heat transfer. And the drafts that they’re feeling is because that old wood, even though they don’t make wood like that anymore, you’re 100% Correct like that. It doesn’t seal up against those non movable portions of that old window anymore. So putting things like, say a storm window, interior or exterior, that helps to a point. But that weather is still finding its way through portions of that window that have nothing to do with the movable aspects of the window itself. So we’re also sealing up those areas to when we’re making this replacement. So storm windows could help for sure, but I don’t think it would ever get to the point where it would be to the area where Laura and her family are feeling comfortable in that upper portion of their house that just isn’t doing much to do, other than keeping the squirrels and the raccoons out at this point in time. So I think that’s another thing that has to be considered to when you are doing these window replacements.
Unknown Speaker 36:52
If you could clarify for me also, a little bit more about fiber exit. Are there other options? Does Anderson have any options with true wood rather than fiber X? Yeah, number one, and if not, or even with that being said, what could you describe the appearance of five rocks? Is it look is it smooth plastic, appearing with wood impregnation? Does it have natural wood grain real wood grain or simulated wood grain? What does it look like?
Unknown Speaker 37:20
Sure, it is a smooth gauge on the frame of the window itself. It is basically wood pieces that are used from the wood windows at our manufacturing plant that then gets put together under high heat and pressure and extruded with a thermal polymer okay. So it is composite thrown through like a TRex decking or something like that. But the appearance of it is very smooth from look and feel it does not try to simulate wood or anything like that whatsoever.
Unknown Speaker 37:52
Either wood options through Andersen at all through Andersen.
Unknown Speaker 37:55
Yeah, sure, if you wanted to go to like Home Depot or something like that and buy an Anderson window, you can absolutely do so you could have little windows on that perspective. But from from my company’s perspective, granted, Anderson is our parent company. We only deal with that fibrex material.
Unknown Speaker 38:13
Thank you. All right, Commissioner Fenster. I have no questions okay. All right
Unknown Speaker 38:37
so the windows are they are single pane. Do you does Anderson make any kind of a storm product historic storm window?
Unknown Speaker 38:46
Not that I’m aware of. No. And your comment Steve about single pane are you talking about the
Unknown Speaker 38:52
old windows or the new old windows, I assume the new the new ones I think he had in here are gone double pane. But to clarify how this gets installed, essentially, you would take out the sashes of the old windows and any stops. And then you would that window frame and sash unit would slide into the basically squared up opening that’s left
Unknown Speaker 39:21
jumping that old frame, I’m taking that a step further to any old hardware that can be removed like rope and pulley systems, anything like that we will take those out. We will seal up those areas again as well, just to make sure that we’re eliminating that draft Enos as much as possible between the old frame and the new frame. Okay. And that’s only if it can be removed. We’re not going to start hammering away on those.
Unknown Speaker 39:52
Yeah, yeah. If you could just be Spirit speaking in the mic. Yeah. And again, it’s recorded So we won’t we’ll miss the recording of Do you want me to make those comments? Again? Yeah, if you want, if you don’t mind.
Unknown Speaker 40:06
Sure. So with that jump frame install, we will be removing old hardware like pulley systems ropes, if possible. Of course, the whole concept of a jump frame install is to preserve that old frame as much as possible. So we’re not taking anything out that can’t be easily removed from the get go.
Unknown Speaker 40:28
Okay, thank you. Yep. Any other Commissioner questions for the applicant? All right. Thank you. I will go ahead and open up the public hearing portion of this. So if there’s anybody else in the audience that would like to speak to this? No good magic. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that. And we’ll, we’ll call you up if we have any other questions that we’d like. Appreciate it. All right. So we’ll go ahead and close the public hearing portion of this item and open it up for discussion amongst the commissioners.
Unknown Speaker 41:18
Unknown Speaker 41:20
I, I have mixed feelings about this, I understand the national standards. And we were about preservation. That means not replacing by definition. I have Windows built in 1885. And they are drafty, I must say. But I still have them. I think I looking at the national standards. When I when I’ve looked at that before. And they show examples of window replacements. They show egregious examples of Windows totally out of proportion or partially bricked in and made into these horrible things. It doesn’t sound like this is going to be that kind of a situation. And I think we are coming to a point we’re in the 21st century where we really have to think very seriously and hard about efficiency and green standards and reducing energy consumption. And these are conflicting goals with preservation sometimes. So I’m, I’m not sure where to go with this personally. I can tell you, I made my own interior storm windows. And I am a surprise. And I have upstairs, I have commercially made interior storm windows that work exceedingly well. And I made my own interior storm windows downstairs at quite a reasonable cost. And they work fairly well. Also, I’m amazed at how much they removed drafts. So I think that is an option that we should consider as a commission. I’m still torn, though, is where to go on this because I understand my heating bill was probably like your heating bill, which is getting astronomical and we do have other considerations, I think to consider, anyway, just my thoughts out loud. Thank you,
Unknown Speaker 43:23
Unknown Speaker 43:26
Yes, there has been no information provided as to whether or not the windows that will be replaced the windows and the window materials. And the frame sizes and shapes that will be replaced would be replaced, are the originals. We don’t know whether the replacements are replacing originals, or are replacing some intermediate period windows that were installed. So that’s one factor that I’m thinking about. The second factor is simplicity, in terms of maintaining the visual images of the original structure. And the third factor that I’m thinking about is what you just mentioned, and that is the need to balance the preservation, interest interests with other factors including energy efficiency, so that that set of factors has been in my consideration and based on what I know about historic preservation, we are coming to a time where worn out materials need to be replaced. We’re intermediate we prior replacements need to make an attempt to go back to originals, at least in terms of visual imagery, if not, in terms of original materials. And we are so far along. Now, in terms of new available materials, that we can accomplish a great deal by using new materials to replace the visual imagery of the original structure.
Unknown Speaker 45:36
Thank you, Commissioner guy.
Unknown Speaker 45:41
So I will just say, you know, I have been in professionally in preservation for over 25 years. And there’s plenty of research out there that says that an original single pane window with a storm window is as efficient if not more efficient, than a double pane window. So let’s keep that in mind that a double pane new window is not going to solve all your problems either. And also, as I said, from looking at the style of this window, and I’m assuming, Brian, that you know that it’s a wooden window, you know, it’s been working functioning in this house for probably over 80 years. And if it was repaired, and maintained, well, it would last for another 100 plus years, whereas I can guarantee you that the replacement windows will not they’re just they’re going to be if you’re lucky, you’ll you know, get to have the payback on the window. Before you have to replace it. You know, double pane windows unfortunately don’t work very well in Colorado, the seals dry up, they break. And so then you’re losing a lot of that annual energy efficiency from the double pane windows pretty soon into it. So for me, personally, I I can’t see removing, if these were in disrepair, you know, if they were missing part of their frames, if they had broken windows, that sort of thing. I could see potentially replacing them. But they look to be in good shape, they could be repaired, they could have a storm window, either interior or exterior added to them to gain that efficiency. And typically, windows are not where most of your energy is lost. It’s through the roof. So you’re much more it’s much more efficient to you know, and in reinforce your roof than to mess with too many windows. So that’s my opinion.
Unknown Speaker 47:56
Thank you, Commissioner Jacoby, it’s more comments.
Unknown Speaker 48:01
More thoughts? Yeah, we are here to approve or disapprove improvements on homes. And almost all all improvements that are made on the exterior do change appearance. We are here to make improvements to balance livability of the homes with preservation. And there are homes that have additions on them that compromise the appearance somewhat, but make the home much more livable. And again, I live in a historic home and I I understand the need to the importance of making it livable. That being said, if there are wood windows available, versus this fiber x which it sounds like yet another plastic compound. Yes, it’s got wood ingrained in it. But there’s nothing uglier to me than sun baked plastic, fake wood, which you see all the time in Colorado. We have incredible UV light here and and plastic just gets baked in it looks ugly. So if what is an option, and that’s where we go, I would say we should go with the wood option instead of fiber X. But all of this being said, again, interior storm windows do work very well. I can vouch for that. I don’t haven’t seen the data that that guy mentions. But I certainly find that they work pretty well. And I wonder Does anybody know? The other problem with functionality? The Windows is opening the windows. I must admit half my windows are painted shut. And I leave them that way so that they’re less drafty. Does anybody notice? Is there people who rebuild traditional sash windows in one month? Is that enough? Question here? Because if that’s not an option, we should consider more heavily replacement.
Unknown Speaker 50:07
That actually leads to a question I was going to ask staff. Do we keep a list still of area contractors that are involved in historic preservation? It feels like we had that at some point. But I don’t I might be making that up too.
Unknown Speaker 50:21
I’ll check on that. I know at one point in time, we had a resource list. And I know I believe, maybe History Colorado has a list of contractor resources as well. You know, the last application that I recall that involved window repair, that went through a COA when I was staff liaison, was to I think it was tall 43/3 Avenue, where they went through a company, I believe, called Phoenix window restoration. And I’m not sure I don’t think they’re in Longmont, necessarily, but they are in the front range. So but yeah, I don’t know, unfortunately, the applicant did not have good luck in terms of their previous attempts at trying to get some information and estimates regarding, you know, repair of the existing Windows, which is unfortunate, but we can certainly check and see if there’s other resources available. Yeah, and
Unknown Speaker 51:33
the reason I, one of the reasons I asked that if I understood from African correctly, there was a particular outfit that they were they were trying to work with for repair, but then didn’t get a response. But it wasn’t a multiple number of you know, so if there’s understand that this is it’s difficult to find these resources, right, these are, these are fairly specialized trades, right. And so if there’s a way to, you know, just as a general rule that we can have resources available to people, to make it a little easier to guide folks down the sort of path, I think that’d be valuable. And I know the list at the state is there, but it’s also sort of huge. So
Unknown Speaker 52:30
I can give you some names of some people like in northern Colorado.
Unknown Speaker 52:39
Any other Commissioner, comments?
Unknown Speaker 52:45
I have a question. That is, what, what is the tearing of objectives to be accomplished in a situation like this? That would include preservation of original materials, preservation of visual original materials, preservation of contours, et cetera, et cetera. And somewhere in that consideration, would be a determination, qualitative or maybe quantitative determination of livability? And I don’t know whether this commission has a sequence of determination factors, or whether it’s subjective.
Unknown Speaker 53:48
I don’t know that. It’s, I mean, there’s some level of subjectivity to it. Right. But, you know, again, we go back to the Secretary of Interior standards, there, it’s reasonably clear, right? I mean, that if existing material can be preserved, it should be right. Now, there are it’s complicated, right? Because there are times when somebody might make changes that would involve removal of some material. And Commissioner guy’s point, you know, if the functionality or the condition is such that completely prevents its use, that’s a that’s a significant factor. And in particular, you know, other factors might come into play in terms of whether they want tax, you know, are looking for tax credits, you know, if they’re looking for money or different certifications. So there’s no real clean, clear answer. But I think, as a general rule, if it’s there, and it’s in reasonably decent condition, the Interior standards would would say that it ought to be He kept and if it’s replaced, it’s replaced with like materials. So I think that’s one of the other issues here is that it’s hard to, it’s replaced, you know, and then the other pieces are the scale and the look and so on. And you can, you can really get into shaving hairs about the extra inch around, you know, which does have an effect. And, you know, maybe it’s less than the second floor, if it was the first floor would be maybe even more of a problem. Because it does start to change the appearance. You know, but it’s at some level, it’s a call a subjective call by the commissioners.
Unknown Speaker 55:37
Bo way, I assume these dormers are not original? Because they were, to my recollection. not common in that period of time.
Unknown Speaker 55:59
Yeah, I would imagine they were originally.
Unknown Speaker 56:07
So unfortunately, just as a comment, you know, probably one of the most controversial and hot button topics in preservation is Windows. Like, it’s literally probably at the top of the list of things that cause massive hand wringing in the historic preservation community. So just please understand.
Unknown Speaker 56:44
Your question? Right. There we go. Thank you. Um, so, you know, the action requested is to make a decision. Um, I guess my question would be hearing what everybody’s saying, um, could this be sort of tabled? Could we maybe try to help her out with maybe getting some names and, you know, trying to get some other ideas so that, you know, we can maybe either try fixing or going more with a wood and give it a little time and a little more research and then hopefully get a decision before the next cold? So she’s not freezing or sweating for, you know, the rest of the year? Because, yeah, I’m sort of I’m hearing all this. And I’m thinking, yeah, if it was my house, I’d want to make sure that this was fixed. On the other hand, I don’t know how capable she is to do these things herself. And I, yeah, I’m sort of at a loss, other than to try to do some more research and try to see if we if there are some resources for her.
Unknown Speaker 57:54
From a just a procedural standpoint, if the certificate of appropriateness as a, as proposed was not approved? Would there need to be you know, there’s another application that needs to happen if the homeowner decided to come back with an alternate plan based on recommendations from the Commission? Is there any penalty or re application fee associated with that, or, or not?
Unknown Speaker 58:27
No, we don’t charge an application fee for certificates of appropriateness, we’re trying to encourage historic preservation in the community. So we all charge fees for our reviews. And so and there’s no time lag or time wait period in terms of reapplying with additional information. And so there’s, I think, in the staff communication, there’s, there’s multiple options in terms of actions that the commission could consider. And so obviously, you can approve with as proposed, you can approve with conditions, approving and part denying in part, you can defer action on the application based on the need for additional information or you can deny the application and those are kind of the four options that were outlined in the staff report. Okay, thank you.
Unknown Speaker 59:30
Unknown Speaker 59:34
Do it again. Sorry. I have to scroll down every time. There you go.
Unknown Speaker 59:39
Christmas colors, we’ll get it figured. All right. Well, this is obviously a difficult decision. But one thing that is clear to me is there is a wood option. And if there’s a wood option, I would not approve fiber X personally, it may be more functional, but it’s not appropriate. bid for this house. And there are other options that hadn’t been looked at such as full interior storm windows. So I would move that we deny the certificate of appropriateness. For now with the understanding that we encourage you to come back if there are difficulties finding suitable alternatives. But I would look into getting interior storm windows. And if that doesn’t work, perhaps we can find some more information for who can rebuild Windows historically. And if that doesn’t work, I would consider the wooden replacements but I don’t think I would consider it the fibrex replacement. So I would move that we denied their certificate of appropriateness at this time. We then was requested to encourage you to come back if you have further problems, because I understand we’ve ability is important in your own home.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:59
Okay, we do have a motion on the floor.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:02
Oh, I’m sorry. I had a question. Well, let’s, let’s
Unknown Speaker 1:01:09
second. Okay. So we do have a motion to deny the application from Commissioner Jacoby and seconded by Commissioner Sibley. Now, we can take discussion on that motion.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:34
Any further comments?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:41
We have I don’t
Unknown Speaker 1:01:46
know that. You know, for again, if we’re following Robert’s Rules of Order, specifically, we’re not opening this back up to the public at this point. So I think I think that period of comment is, it’s probably past. So yeah, I guess my only comment is, you know, I understand. I think there’s, there’s there are a couple things going on. I think that the commission would like to see a broader effort to consider storm with again, we’re not here to try to, you know, put people through the wringer. But but it is an important item. And so to agree that the commission and they’re basically the staff, historic preservation staff can can help and assist people to get a little better direction. We’d like to see that happen. And then, you know, with with a with an effort on that end, and then potentially an alternate proposal. We’re certainly welcome. People back. So with no if there’s no further discussion on that motion.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:09
I don’t know whether it’s a discussion on the motion, but it’s question fit your new excuse for a newcomer, and that is in terms of historic preservation. In addition to our concerns about the configuration of the structure, and its exterior, how much interest do we have in a configuration interior? In other words, does our preservation mandate include both the shapes and sizes of the interior and visual imagery of the interior? And I raised that question, specifically because interior storm windows are not wonderfully original, in terms of the visual imagery of the interior, any more than they would be wonderful for the exterior. So I have a question as to whether interior storm windows are ever in our institutional view. As good as a good set of replacement windows.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:36
Unknown Speaker 1:04:37
Absolutely. Yes. Anytime you can maintain a window and its original opening, especially if it’s an original slash early. Wood that you’re never going to see again. Absolutely. I mean, this house has the benefit of having exterior storms, you can see the hooks above every window. So there’s, you know, they could potentially just replace the exterior storms, obviously that that can be challenging. Not too many people want to get up and, you know, take a storm window off and put a screen on, you know, twice a year, get bladder out all that sort of stuff. So I think that that is sort of my bow to, you know, that livability quotient, which is you have the anterior storms that are a lot easier to either take on or take off or have ones that are functional alongside the window. So our main purpose here, this group, yes, is the exterior of the building. That’s our principal function. We don’t get into the interior too much unless we’re asked to review. A tax credit project wants money for the interior. So yeah, typically, we’re with these sorts of things where 99% Looking at the exterior of the building.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:13
Thank you, Commissioner. Okay. Any further comments or discussion on the motion on the floor? Hearing none, I’ll call for a vote. All those in favor of the denial of the certificate of appropriateness. please say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? The
Unknown Speaker 1:06:36
motion opposed? Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:38
So we have commissioners in favor. Barner Jacoby lane, Guy Sibley and Fenster post. So sorry that that didn’t go the way you were hoping for. But we hope that you understand our position and and our encouragement to find some other solutions. And we’d welcome you back here at another time to talk a little further about maybe some slightly more appropriate solutions, and rely on staff and for a little bit of assistance. Thanks for coming in.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:30
Okay, my agenda
Unknown Speaker 1:07:41
next item on our agenda is new business, and it didn’t appear that we have any.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:46
That’s correct. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:49
prior business, our 2023 planning retreat dates, certainly like to get some things on the calendar. So do we have any options here that staffs looked at?
Unknown Speaker 1:08:03
Well, yes. So I know you guys talked about this. At your December meeting. There’s a fairly extensive discussion on different topics of interest regarding code amendments and other projects. The commission is interested in pursuing and reaching some completion on and so I know, we did some checking on potential dates in March. And we have a hold on I know we’re looking at Thursdays and I don’t recall and 21 when you when you had the retreat, I believe that was on a weeknight as well. Do you guys recall that? It was it
Unknown Speaker 1:08:50
was during a weekday like a Saturday,
Unknown Speaker 1:08:53
Saturday, Saturday? Okay. Well, anyway, sounds like bait and I’m sorry, I haven’t been working on this. But it sounds like based on some of the checking. staff had looked at a couple of Thursdays and I don’t know, if you prefer a weeknight or a weekend I don’t we kind of check in with the commissioner right now. You have a preference,
Unknown Speaker 1:09:19
and we can skip the mic on this one if we just do it real quick.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:23
I mean, we have a hold right now for using the council study session room on March 16, or the 23rd which are Thursdays which would be basically an evening, late afternoon or evening. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:43
For our session.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:46
I have to understand if you have any quick opinions.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:50
The 23rd definitely doesn’t work for me. And probably Yeah, I weeknights just there. They’re already there. already too much free. So I might probably be a weekend. I know that’s kind of hard for staff. But
Unknown Speaker 1:10:06
I mean, I know when I had a few retreats with a commission we I think we had a moderate sandstone ranch. And we did we did Saturdays I believe at that time. So we can certainly check on availability for a venue, if the preference is on a Saturday. Probably not a Sunday.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:31
Yeah, I can make multiple things work. But that would probably be a preference for me, those two dates that you put out there, I wouldn’t be able to make. Okay. So all right. Any other comments about just Saturdays or
Unknown Speaker 1:10:47
whatever works for you, too.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:49
So it’s sounds I’m getting the general sense that Saturday is preferred to a evening. on a weekday?
Unknown Speaker 1:10:58
I think you’ve got at least two comments to that effect. And some
Unknown Speaker 1:11:02
are a few other whatever works best for the commission?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:07
And actually, I do have I just realized, the weekend of the 11th, march 11. If you were doing so, not the best?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:18
This is this is yeah, this is gonna be tough. Can you? What about those? What are those coolest little online calendar apps where everybody jumps in? And what our I don’t know what they are, you know, what I’m talking about where you have? There’s a handful at, right? out the time that they can’t do it, or what have you. Could we do we have the technology to set?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:44
I’m sure we can figure it out. Either that or I’ll get my son. However,
Unknown Speaker 1:11:54
that might be worthwhile just to kind of ping some people’s availability and maybe include some weekdays in there just in case everybody you know, because if we end up with half the folks can’t make a Saturday, you know, the
Unknown Speaker 1:12:10
work? Yeah, obviously, the two dates that we had hold on to all work anyway, the 16th and the 23rd.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:16
Yeah. And just FYI, that’s so the night the week of the 19th. Is st brain Valley spring break? True. We’re just I might be the only one still with kids in the school district. But that’s good point. But data, data might two of March. Yeah. So yeah, right. Yeah. If we can, if we can do a pull up poll for dates, and, you know, maybe maybe a Friday or a Friday afternoon, there’s no no, no. Okay. Yeah, I’m okay with the weekend too. But
Unknown Speaker 1:12:59
just okay. Well, like I said, I’ll chat with Jennifer and Glen and see what options are. And we’ll, we’ll send out a poll and good everybody’s gonna take some availability and our non availability perhaps, right, we kind of work around there. Right. Okay. Well, you already have constraints on. So related to that, obviously, you know, whenever we settled on a date, I think we’d also want to create an agenda with a list of topics. And I know, like I said, I read through the minutes from the December meeting, obviously, there’s quite a bit of discussion regarding a variety of different topics. You know, obviously, code amendments is an ongoing discussion with demolition and property maintenance, penalties and enforcement and other other things as priorities. And then there’s also kind of the whole discussion regarding, you know, the pros and cons regarding neighborhood design guidelines versus a conservation overlay versus a historic district. So we could kind of have some discussion about that as well. I know, we’ve been talking about working on a grant application for our Community Preservation Plan, community survey plan, perhaps other community outreach efforts. And if there’s other commission interests, and then also, I think, a part of the retreat, you’d also want to establish priorities for those those items that the commission is interested in working on. And we can you know, and when we send out the poll, perhaps we could send out a list of topics and have a maybe a poll on topics of interest that the commission would like to discuss at the retreat unless you guys have already talked about that. Well,
Unknown Speaker 1:14:49
Glenn did have us run through during the December meeting. He did have us run through some some ideas, but it would not be a bad thing, especially since we have one new committee. Sure, when that that meeting to throw the that back out. And maybe during that poll just pulling the I think it’s might even be in I don’t know if it was in December’s meeting minutes, but in, you know, from one of the past meetings, just that list of, of priorities that Glenn had proposed. And we discussed Sure, say, oh, there any that come off or need to be added to.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:29
And we had some of this discussion. I remember when after Jay left. And early last year, we kind of revisited some of the topics and discussions that happened during the 21 retreat. And we talked about kind of at that time, at least what the Commission’s interests were and their priorities, and we may we can kind of revisit that that as well, in addition to what was what’s been more recently discussed, with the Commission and staff. If that sounds reasonable, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:03
Dude, I’m sorry, I’m do it again, one more time, and I’ll get you on there.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:08
I hit these things. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:10
So, Brian, German, I think the was pretty clear. At our last meeting, that we felt that the question of demolition, right, because of the conversations that we had, with the mayor and council in our joint meeting, that, that the concept of demolition encompassed a large number of things. And I’m just kind of repeating what I’ve said, it’s in the minutes already. That if we only did that, that would be a fantastic thing to get some kind of meat on how we want to deal with those issues during the year. The other thing that that I concluded, I think we all concluded was staff maybe said that until we get feedback from the city attorney, on how they want to revise their presentations to us on changing the municipal code, that what they really didn’t make much sense for us to discuss it anymore. So we had a pretty good discussion. Right? The Mayor’s office, city attorney said, Well, we kind of have to go back and rethink this based on what we heard. So we’re I think, I don’t think that really is a good retreat subject, unless the city attorney is prepared to come up with some information for us. Otherwise, we’re just going to be talking about the same stuff we talked about before with no, there’s no there there.
Unknown Speaker 1:17:40
Well, and so how much of an ask is it? I mean, we’re gonna have staff there. On some level, how much of an ask is it to get at least a representative of the city attorney’s office there during this retreat?
Unknown Speaker 1:17:53
I talked to you I know Glenn’s been more having conversations with them about, you know, obviously, the code amendment, so I can ask him and see what his thoughts are on that. I think that
Unknown Speaker 1:18:04
could mean it could potentially be very valuable and, and add some efficiency to the process. If it and some guidance to, you know, getting to that conversation. It’s worth ask.
Unknown Speaker 1:18:18
Sure. That’s pretty much all I have on the retreat topic until we get
Unknown Speaker 1:18:28
right. The other thing that staff said they would be getting for us, and I think it really is, would be helpful. If they had that. For the retreat is comparables between other cities in Colorado, other cities in the region, for the cities in Colorado, how they’re dealing with an issue. Yeah, you know,
Unknown Speaker 1:18:49
I said they had all that stuff. Well, you know, I put that together a while ago,
Unknown Speaker 1:18:53
I think I threw you under the bus there because you weren’t here and said, Yeah. Brian has all that.
Unknown Speaker 1:18:57
I actually I do and I’ve I have that I’ve probably needs to be and I think I’ve given that to Glenn and Jennifer. It was some of the kind of the research that I did of all the various some of the other Front Range communities about their demolition process. You know, if they have a demolition by neglect penalties and enforcement things along those lines. I know that there’s there’s a few probably a few communities that have recently, more recently since I put that information together updated their preservation codes. I think Lafayette was one example. But yeah, I wouldn’t take too much to kind of resurrect that and update that information.
Unknown Speaker 1:19:40
I think that’d be valuable. Sure. I mean, I think probably Geeta and I are the only two people that were at that session. Oh, no. Yeah. So area, it’s all it’s mostly going to be new anyways. So sure, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:19:58
Now it’d be good to kind of revisit that added, like I said, updated that based on, you know, new information that’s available based on 10 potential changes that other communities have made. So right.
Unknown Speaker 1:20:12
Next to this, or here’s what I’m gonna do, I’m gonna turn some, I get some of these for
Unknown Speaker 1:20:24
you. You did mention this grind, but I would like. Personally, I’d like to see a discussion of conservation overlays at the retreat. Since our last meeting, I’ve spoken to Glenn several times, it sounds like the city that we were not going to pursue it. And that historic Eastside neighborhood could pursue it. And certainly, there’s some energy in that, that community about getting this done. They’ve been asking for it for years. The way the conservation overlay is written right now in the city code, it’s very vague, number one, and I’ve had some discussions with Glenn about what to do about that. It’s really his judgment about what we need to do and what we don’t. And so it’s very vague code. And it’s relatively unusable. Apparently historic Eastside tried to get a conservation overlay they applied to the city. Several years ago, I’m not sure how many years ago I wasn’t involved. But it would cost there’s a significant financial commitment and neighborhood groups don’t have that. It’s treated as a rezoning, which means you have to notify everybody in your neighborhood, every household outside of your neighborhood within 1000 yards. And you know what the mailings for that alone cost? There’s no way most neighborhoods are going to be able to do that. So I think we should maybe revisit the conservation overlay code and discuss how we can make it workable so that neighborhoods that are interested that would benefit could actually use it
Unknown Speaker 1:22:13
all right. Any other comments or questions for now?
Unknown Speaker 1:22:29
Helps if I hit the right button. I’m so going back to this woman in her windows because I, I need to, it’s painful. I’m there. So? Yeah, there you go. I didn’t mean to but yeah. I love it. It’s gonna be a fun year. No. I’m so I know, I’m sure. A guy who said that she may have, you know, some recommendations for whatever. And I, you know, I don’t know, you know, all how those lists work and all of that. And I know that there’s a lot of folks that are going to be at the conference next week. And I don’t know if is it appropriate to like gather names and numbers to kind of put on similis or, or anything like that I don’t want to speak out of turn, and like, you know, start making more work for people. But on the flip side, you know, if we have those kinds of resources for somebody in her position, you know, she struck me is not really knowing a whole lot about the process. And so she’s got this lovely house that she may not necessarily know how to take care of. And, you know, I don’t know what kind of guidance is there for somebody like that. So
Unknown Speaker 1:23:53
yeah, what I might be interested in doing, I’ll talk to Jennifer about this. But I mentioned one example when I was a staff liaison about a property on Third Avenue that they did a beautiful job with some window repair through a through a company. That’s why I was doing some checking that looks like it’s still in existence. And, and I believe that couple would be happy to chat with Laura. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:24:24
Sorry, I turned that off accidentally. You know, and see what experience they had. Kind of if they have any recommendations and just kind of I think that that might be helpful just to kind of put her a little bit more at ease about the whole process.
Unknown Speaker 1:24:48
Here we go. Thank you. There is at the saving places conference. I went to the schedule. There’s a session on energy codes in historic buildings on the night. I’m at 315. I saw that I circled that one is one that I want to go to, but just heads up for others who are going because that might be very helpful.
Unknown Speaker 1:25:11
Right, right. Yeah. And there will be some form of vendor, you know, room. And typically that’s a place where you might see a bike, there’ll be a lot of guys like the window wrap window reps like to sell windows. It as it turns out, but But there may be some folks who have a, you know, maybe specialize in in storm window products, or I mean that they do exist, right. It’s, they’re out there.
Unknown Speaker 1:25:45
I mean, I can certainly understand the property owners at tonight’s application, because I get tons of fliers for Renewal by Andersen. It’s amazing. Yeah, it seems like they see my house.
Unknown Speaker 1:26:04
I’d like to comment on what happened, I would have approved the replacement subject to ensuring that a wood material was used other than fiber X, and one that provided maximum longevity. And I would have approved because I think the use of storm windows exterior or inter are horrible in terms of historic preservation. And getting them off the building on the exterior is worth a lot in terms of restoration, and not having them on the interior is worth a lot. So I would have been inclined to approve the subject to a guarantee that the maximum longevity of the new window was equal to perhaps the original in terms of the wood product that was used, it was probably not fabrics from the little I know about fabrics. And I just wanted you all to know what my thoughts were on the subject.
Unknown Speaker 1:27:29
Thank you. Quick, I’ll get to but just a quick comment on storm windows. If we were to approve storm windows, they would have to be historically appropriate. Ly scaled storm windows. So for example, if you’re thinking of aluminum storm windows that gets slapped onto your typical house, that would not be approved by this commission, they would have to be a material that essentially replicated the the form and shape of the existing windows so that from the exterior, a non trained I would not really even notice just as a piece of information.
Unknown Speaker 1:28:09
Thank you, you should come over to my house and see my interior storm windows, they really do not change the appearance of the windows very much at all. I have two kinds again, I have one that was commercially installed on my upstairs windows. And there is a little plastic bead that goes around the the window frame but it’s relatively narrow, and it’s painted over the color of the trim and you don’t see it during the summer and winter time you snap the windows onto it and it works very well. The ones I made for my downstairs are just a wooden frame that I made and I tuck it behind the shade on the upper part of the window. And the lower part I just put two little braces to hold it in and I unscrew those and take those off when the window when it’s off, you don’t see any change at all to the window. So there are options available for interior storm windows you should know that are pretty good. And they’re both fairly effective. The upstairs commercial ones are better. But the downstairs ones are really just wood frame and I took the three M plastic and I seal that tighten it up over that. And I just put it’s like reusable three M plastic on my Windows basically. But it’s on the wood frame that I just stick in the windows and it works quite well.
Unknown Speaker 1:29:23
If you had your druthers and costs were not a factor. Would you instead use a triple pane with very good wood framing?
Unknown Speaker 1:29:34
It’s a good it’s a question. I mean, again, my house is historically designated so wouldn’t be approved according to the guidelines. I would love to have my windows open without being drafty like I said some of my lead painted shut because it does make them work better. So I did what I ideally it cost no object I would have someone rebuild all my windows. Yeah. And again I don’t know who does that. But I guess there are people who can rebuild traditionalist sash windows. And, you know, again, it’s it’s been shown in study after study, it’s not cost effective for, for thermal efficiency. Yes, you add more insulation and whatnot. But just for convenience and to get air movement, it would be great to have windows.
Unknown Speaker 1:30:21
Thanks. Alright, let’s refocus here. Do we have anything in particular on the HPC code amendments to talk about? Or just the fact that we need to talk about them during the retreat?
Unknown Speaker 1:30:33
Not Not much. I know. Yeah, as I mentioned, Glenn’s not here this evening. You know, I know I did, reading through the December meeting minutes. I know, you mentioned regarding the plan to follow up with Council to discuss more focused set of amendments to the preservation code generally consistent with, you know, prior direction from Council, and then also asked council if they agree with the Commission’s recommendations about moving forward on addressing the code. And I think it sounds like he’s still working on finding a time to have that discussion with with counsel at an upcoming meeting. And I know, we’ve been able to fortunately, finally hire a couple of new planners to fill a couple of couple of our positions there. They’re currently in training. And that’s, that’s good. We have a couple more positions to fill. Glen also mentioned that we’re also looking at hiring a consultant firm to help with planning projects that staff just hasn’t been able to get to just due to resourcing limitations. It’s surprisingly, it’s been challenging trying to get applicants that go through the recruitment process. So it’s taken a lot longer than we anticipated to fill positions. So hopefully, with some of the new staff that we have that like I said, I’ll, as I think as Jennifer mentioned, at the December meeting, it’ll help free up some of her time so she can focus more on preservation related matters. But that’s about the extent of my comments on the Kota amendments. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:32:26
Fair enough. Commissioner Barnett. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:32:28
Just to clarify, Brian just might have been a word or two here or there. But it’s my understanding that the Commission didn’t have any specific recommendations with respect to the code. We had a healthy discussion. Okay. With the city’s attorney, city attorney. And you were there for part of that. No. And the mayor’s in the mayor and the other council members that were there. And and then it just kind of stopped because city attorney realized he’s got to have to go back to square one and see you well, might have what we heard, what do you want to do? So I’d be careful saying that we have any recommendations?
Unknown Speaker 1:33:07
Right. I know, there was a discussion for the December meeting kind of about it. And I think Glenn kind of laid out well, what’s your maybe your top priorities for code amendments? If if it now there was that
Unknown Speaker 1:33:22
we talked about that top priority for code amendment well for for our whole agenda,
Unknown Speaker 1:33:27
but what was specifically what was discussed was was peeling out the demolition portion of risk four, and to act on that piece to try to make a rather than a broad brush, all these different things, the overlay district, so on and so forth. Just peel out the demolition ordinance piece and try to act specifically on that as a, as a commission, to try to get something moving, because the bigger picture was too overwhelming for the reasons that you brought forth, and getting counsel involved and so on. So those bigger pictures, that that’s still a part of our our demolition ordinance would still be part of our retreat, but we’d like to get moving on that. But that’s, that’s been identified as probably the most highest priority for the commission. And then the other piece to act technically to truly make something happen. And the other pieces are a little bit more waiting on the broader discussion of the retreat.
Unknown Speaker 1:34:35
Excuse me. Do we have our own counsel?
Unknown Speaker 1:34:40
No, just the cities, or should we have our own counsel? I don’t think the city’s gonna fund that.
Unknown Speaker 1:34:46
Well, let me
Unknown Speaker 1:34:48
as far as requested, you know, the Commission can request that a representative from the city attorney’s office attend a meeting. If there is legal matters to consider, and I know obviously we have a regular member of the city attorney’s office attend to plan Zoning Commission meetings, just because of land use matters and quasi judicial decisions that are made. But if there is a legal related discussion, we can certainly request that a city attorney’s office attend a particular meeting. And
Unknown Speaker 1:35:29
I asked the I’m a lawyer, by the way, with 60 years of experience, and a from what? I already have a conflict if I were to do that, but and that’s my point. And it sounds to me like there’s a lot of law related subject matter that comes before this commission. And that’s not surprising at all. And even if you needed a lawyer who is volunteering, who you’re not going to pay to have a lawyer responsible to this commission, who has no conflicts or potential conflicts. I guess that comes to the point of a suggestion on my part. And I suspect that within the community, you could find a lawyer who would have no conflicts. And in representing only this commission, this commission has, it’s obvious to me, it’s my first time I’ve been here. This commission has a large circle of legal matters, which in which it could have conflicts of interest with the city. And if you can find a volunteer, even if you’re not going to pay him, but whose loyalty from a legal perspective as to the Commission might be worthwhile.
Unknown Speaker 1:37:13
I don’t know if any example where a board or commission has had an outside counsel that has not, you know, obviously, where the board and commission has not been represented by the city attorney’s office?
Unknown Speaker 1:37:25
Well, I can, I can give you a list of them all over the country.
Unknown Speaker 1:37:30
I’m just my example from obviously, I’ve only worked here at the city for a long time.
Unknown Speaker 1:37:42
The landmark designation commission was formed and then became the historic preservation commission, but just employing the KISS principle. You know, it sounds like we haven’t needed a lawyer so far, very often, if at all. So just using the KISS principle, I’d say employing the city attorneys when we need them would probably be adequate. I don’t know. And finding volunteers is sounds easy, but it is very hard. So if you can find a volunteer lawyer, good luck. But again, I don’t see a huge need personally. I mean, I’m relatively new to the Commission as well. You’re, you’re the newbie. You’re second. I’m third in line, but so I don’t have a lot of history with it. But I mean, I don’t think there’s been a large need, right. It historically was. Yes, but they they’re dealt with well enough without having a lawyer here to oversee it
Unknown Speaker 1:38:37
specifically to meet the times when we have needed the attorney’s advice has been essentially limited to discussions about making changes to the city’s ordinance. Right. And and we’re going to have the city attorney, he’s going to be looking at that. No matter what. So, so yeah, I think that’s record points. Probably. Probably true. I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know that we’ve failed. I’ve sat in on planning commission meetings and city council meetings where the attorney has been asked specific questions about land use and what the what the various Commission’s have been, are able to do and not able to do and the limits of their authority and that sort of thing. I in the entire time. I’ve been on this commission, I don’t know that I’ve ever had that kind of situation come up where the commission wasn’t sure if they had the authority to make the decision that they were going to make I think it’s generally pretty, pretty clear. And, you know, we deal with complex issues, but in reality, it’s it’s within a very narrow, you know, sort of bandwidth, right? So I I have not seen that in my experience. Anyway. It’s a fair point. All right. Well, so I think that the issue if you can just kind of communicate back, because the staff, Jennifer, and I guess, Glen, you know, if we can, if we can, for sure have the demolition ordinance and a discussion of that on our next agenda, regardless of where the where the retreat lands, because we’d like to start talking about that sooner than later. And then the other bigger picture items can be on that retreat.
Unknown Speaker 1:40:44
Yes, I will pass that information along. And I will make sure that they have my old research. So
Unknown Speaker 1:40:50
thank you. All right. So that just brings us to general comments from HPC. Commission. There’s been, you know, decent amount of discussion here, which is, which is healthy. If there’s anything else anyone commissioners would like to put forth this evening before we retire? No?
Unknown Speaker 1:41:13
Unknown Speaker 1:41:15
appreciate the comments in the conversation. We do not have our city council representative here with us tonight. So there will be no comments there. And that brings us to adjournment. All right, a motion and a second. And all in favor of German tie. We are adjourned. I believe that motion in second motion came from Commissioner Jacoby and second from bark. Thank you all. Good night.
Unknown Speaker 1:41:46
Thank you all appreciate it. Thanks for your indulgence and putting up with me this evening.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai