Longmont Planning and Zoning – Regular Meeting – June 22, 2022
Note: The following is the output of transcribing from a video recording. Although the transcription, which was done with software, is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or [software] transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the meeting, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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Unknown Speaker 0:00
Oh, welcome to everybody. I’d like to call to order the June 20. June 22 2022. Planning Zoning Commission meeting for the city of Longmont. First item is Roll Call. Chairman POLIN here, Commissioner hight. Vice Chairman Goldberg, Commissioner Koehler. Chairman, you do have a quorum. Thank you very much. Next item is communications. From planning director Glen Ben Wiggin.
Unknown Speaker 0:31
Mr. Chair and planning commissioners, it’s great seeing your smiling faces here in person. You just have one thing we’d like to have a special presentation for our former Planning and Zoning Commission chair, Michael Chernykh, who is in the building. And I just want to tell you real quick. When I first started here, Joanie said, You’ve got to meet with our planning commission chair and was one of my first zoom meetings here at City of Longmont. And Michael just immediately put me at ease as far as his level of expertise in planning and zoning and city of Longmont. And he spoke so highly of all of you, too. So I thought this is going to be a piece of cake. Then I met all of you and no, no. It’s been great. But I’d like to pass the baton to Michael Poland to say a few things.
Unknown Speaker 1:22
Okay, thank you. I’d like to thank Michael for his service to the city. I had the pleasure of working with him, I believe it was for seven years on the commission. I believe he had the 11 years on the commission total. I must say always like that he provided the architectural comments. And I always appreciated that very much and relied on him a lot for that. So I just want to thank them a lot. And I also want to open it up in case any of the other members of the Commission have anything that they want to say?
Unknown Speaker 1:55
Well, I don’t have notes with like, deeds and how long but boy, I’d be remiss if I didn’t just tip the hat to former chairman Schoeneck. You know, I think he brought so much skill to the, to the commission, certainly his architectural background, but I think what I really glean from and learn from Michael is how to run a meeting, how to listen, how to be engaged, how to ask thoughtful questions, and I, you know, every meeting, both, you know, in this building and at work, you know, at home, you know, I behave differently in meetings and in professional settings because of things that I’ve learned from Michael. So I will be unendingly appreciative of for those lessons learned and I appreciate it.
Unknown Speaker 2:50
I guess I’m next. Michael, congratulations. I really appreciated working with you serving under you. You lead through a very difficult time transition as we went online and managed it beautifully. As Commissioner Goldberg pontificated upon your ability to to lead a meeting is exquisite. And was was well done. I also appreciate the fact that you were very willing to go into the weeds on the issues that are presented here which I kind of like to do to those sometimes we need weed whackers and we got through it. I really enjoyed working with you. Thank you
Unknown Speaker 3:36
Okay, we have a presentation Do you want us all to come in front then Okay. Thank you very much for your service. Certificate of Appreciation Thank you The next item is public comments and Jane is checking to see if anybody signed up for the air Thank you. We do have a couple of members of the public signed up the first person Kenny for Rick. I hope I got that right. Kenny, if you can just please state your name and your address for the record, and you have five minutes to talk.
Unknown Speaker 5:44
County forense Yes. 861 Which and drive in Longmont. Okay. And I’ve stepped up here only and put my name on there only because I want to be sure that I’d have an opportunity to ask questions when you discuss the GIL estates plan,
Unknown Speaker 6:02
you won’t be able to ask questions, but you will be able to at the beginning, at the midpoint of that to be able to make statements to us regarding it. So there’s not a back and forth with the public, unfortunately. But there’s an opportunity for you to after the presentation by the applicant and by the city for you to come up and as some make some statements regarding it.
Unknown Speaker 6:26
Okay, I’ll think about that. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 6:35
And the next one is Mike and Annette Hunter. For the same reason, okay. Okay, then I will just go ahead and note that you will be wanting to talk at the when we discussed the public hearing item. Okay. Anybody else in the audience who would like to make a statement that is not regarding the item on the agenda today? If not, I will go ahead and close the public invited to be heard. Next item is the approval of the minutes of April 20 2022. Are there any comments, questions or motions?
Unknown Speaker 7:25
Josh? Yeah, thanks, Chairman. I’d like to move to approve the April 28 2022 minutes.
Unknown Speaker 7:33
We have a motion to approve. And seek number two which is John. Mr. Ali.
Unknown Speaker 7:43
My I’m sorry. It’s red light, green light. I’m confused. It’s backwards. Red light means talk. I second.
Unknown Speaker 7:49
Thank you very much. We have a motion and a second. Jane, do want to take the vote for that then. Commissioner height.
Unknown Speaker 7:59
Vice Chairman Goldberg high. Commissioner Poland. Hi. Sorry, Commissioner color. Thank you that passes, three approvals and one abstention.
Unknown Speaker 8:10
Okay, very good. Thank you. The next item is the public hearing item the Gila states preliminary plat. And we have Zach Blazic. Associate planner presenting.
Unknown Speaker 8:25
Everybody can hear me? Yes. What a thing to see while in person not over screen. It’s nice to see you all meet you all. For real. I feel like I’ve spoken with you all over the screen a number of times and now we actually get to do it. Okay, good evening, Commissioner chairs. Chair commissioners. My name is Zack. I’m here to present on the GIL estates preliminary subdivision plant. So some background on the property. It’s at 2459 West ninth Ave, which is at the southwest corner of Ninth Avenue Allen drive. It’s just under two and a half acres zoned residential single family and was designated for single family use when it was annexed in 2005. In our comprehensive plan around the property or all residential land uses to the west and south we have existing single family residential. To the east we have mixed neighborhood residential and directly to the east in that zone district is single family houses. And to the north is also residential mixed neighborhood. And that’s the Stonebridge apartment. So what’s multifamily? Again the property is zoned residential single family in that zone district it allows maximum density up to eight dwelling units per acre. This application proposes two dwelling units per acre. The site again just under two and a half acres, which allows for up to 19 dwelling units. This application proposes nine dwelling units so the request is to preliminary plat nine individual single family res venture lats those will range from 9500 square feet to just under 12,000 square feet. In addition to the nine lots there are two right of way. dedications proposed one is pretty large at the north portion of the site adjacent to ninth Ave. The other is pretty small, it’s in the southwest corner adjacent to Allen drive. In addition to the request for nine lots, there is one variance request, which would allow driveway access to Allen drive a collector Street and land use code. Driveway access for single family homes is only permitted to local streets. And that’s the purpose of this request. And we’ll go into more detail with the applicant’s presentation later on. So after they all get the chance to speak, then we can take your questions on them. As far as public outreach, there was a neighborhood meeting in early February 2020. The application was submitted late in 2021. At that time, we sent out a notice and posted the property and did not received any written comments from any members of the public. We noticed for this meeting earlier this month and again did not receive any written comments from anyone in the public. So just some things that we considered as we reviewed, and came to our decision of how we would make our recommendation today. With exception to that one variance request, the project does meet the review criteria for the preliminary subdivision plat. We found that the minimum lot Standards for Area and wit had been met. The proposed density aligns with the zoning and the comprehensive plan. And as far as for future development, there are no federal or state protected species on the site, there is one raptor nest nearby, and there is an active prairie dog colony on the site. So for those two items, they will have to go through the appropriate permitting processes prior to construction. All the existing trees on the site are in poor condition. The rest of the site is vacant, but there are some trees. Our forester determined that there wouldn’t be any cash in lieu fee for the removal of those trees prior to construction. So no worries there. And last, the school district determined that they were able to accommodate the existing or the proposed additional residential development without issue. So with that, today, I’d like to recommend that you approve the Gila state’s preliminary subdivision plat application and the variance request which would allow driveway access to Allen drive, finding that the review criteria has been met. And with that, I’ll turn it over to Frank and his team. And we’ll swap out our presentations here. And these guys will come up and give their presentation. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 12:26
Thank you, Zack.
Unknown Speaker 12:31
My time so how do you work it just talking to it. Or you can just click this button to go on to the next slide.
Unknown Speaker 12:39
All right. Beaming folks, I’m Frank Drexel. I’m was civil arts civil arts as the engineering surveyor for Gila states. I’m here with Dan Alonso, who is our Chief Engineer. Dan can speak to any engineering questions that you might have. I’m also here with John Marshall of Marshall architecture. And John can also speak to to for any architecture questions that you might have.
Unknown Speaker 13:23
I’m gonna be a little bit redundant on some of my stuff here, but the site is 2.4 acres and is located south of Ninth Avenue and, and east of Allen drive. It’s bounded on the ninth on the north by Ninth Avenue. It’s bounded on the east by Danya West subdivision. It’s bounded on the south and the west by Golden ponds estate filing number two subdivision. This is an aerial view, and you can see that the the site is vacant. The lower portion of the site is danio west and the north portion of the site is Allen drive and Golden Pond estates. And I guess the the, the left part is also Golden Pond estates.
Unknown Speaker 14:30
real estates is proposing nine single family detached lots adjacent and east of Allen drive. Lots range between 90 612,000 square feet. Lots have a minimum width of 61 feet and have a building envelope to accommodate a 50 foot wide home. The proposed development will comply with city design standards. Worth noting existing ninth Ave He was classified as an arterial Street. And existing Allen drive is classified as a collector Street, which will bring us to the variance when we when we get to that point, current zoning of the property is going to remain our SF zone district.
Unknown Speaker 15:24
The next slide here is really of the the elevation views of the five home models that we’re presenting. The first two that you see are really ranch style homes. The next three are really two story homes. And we’d like to think that the architecture is similar to the ones across the street, in Golden Pond estates, and kind of behind us in danio west.
Unknown Speaker 16:11
So, as far as review criteria here, based on section 1502 55 Number one, the application is consistent with the comprehensive plan, purpose of the code and the current RSF zone district. The comp plan says the location number one is desirable and beneficial to the community. And number two, the land uses single family residential. Number two, the application complies with applicable city standards. So Alan drive will be used as primary access to the site and no street designs are no new street designs are proposed. existing water and sewer mains are located in Allen drive and will be used. Proposed water and sewer services and water and a water quality system are planned according to city standards. An underdrain system is planned according to city standards and will tie into the Golden Pond a state’s filing number two system. Gila states is compatible with both Golden Pond estates and danio West which are the the immediate surrounding properties. We’re proposing nine single family homes that are consistent with both developments we’re offering a blend of single storey homes which are similar to what’s what’s in Denny a West and multi story homes, which are similar to Golden Pons estates. The density of debt Danya west the density is about the same as Danny West and it’s it’s it’s a little bit higher than Golden Pond the state’s. Number four Gila states will not adversely affect the surrounding properties, the natural environment, city transportation or utilities and any adverse effect that the that we will be imposing will be mitigated to the maximum extent possible. So the homestyles are compatible. And the additional traffic from nine additional homes on Allen drive will not overload the traffic situation. There will be no impact to the natural environment except that there is a prairie dog colony, which will be removed according to city guidelines. utility services and facilities were not be burdened from the addition of nine new homes. Gila states will also not really impact city transportation, but I imagine from time to time somebody will want to use the buses or something like that. Number five Gil estates complies with the sustainability evaluation system to mitigate impacts to the city riparian system. I don’t believe Gila states is really part of the city riparian area. However, there is a ditch the danio Taylor and mill ditch which used to actually come across Ninth Avenue and go down the the east part of the property. However that is been really rerouted. It’s now underground, and it does cross Ninth Avenue but once it just gets into I’m going to say where our right away dedication is. It goes east really kind of into the Danielle West neighborhood. We do have a proposed water quality system which will reduce the impact of on site drain and sediment. Number six Gila states proposes and proposes an appropriate transportation plan. As we’ve mentioned, all traffic from Gila states will, we’ll be using Allen drive, and from there, the traffic will froat flow to neighboring streets. We have also proposed a multimodal plan which utilizes an integrated system of existing and new City Sidewalks and crosswalks to kind of maintain regional pedestrian and by bike travel. Some other review criteria that I want to talk about is first section 15 Oh II. And
Unknown Speaker 21:11
it basically says or the way that we respond to that is this. This proposed infill development is already surrounded by developed subdivisions within the city and will not eliminate the ability to integrate into the city. The next one, section 15 Oh, G nine, which really speaks to the prairie dogs. But the site does contain an active prairie dog colony, which apparently requires a major prairie dog management permit. No prairie dog management will occur during breeding season, and the burrowing owl and mountain plover surveys will be will be performed prior to construction. Section 15 Oh 5070 be one. We have provided under drains around the foundation to mitigate high high groundwater. Section 1505 110 homes will comply with residential design standards, including garage placement, architectural design compatibility with adjacent neighborhoods, materials, etc. Section 15 Oh II which has to do with Ninth Avenue noise mitigation for lot one. The house is being set back about 70 feet from Ninth Avenue. And we are going to require additional insulation on the north side of that house to mitigate whatever noise from Ninth Avenue
Unknown Speaker 23:08
so I think that that kind of brings me into to kind of the variance here. Section 15 Oh, gee to be basically prevents us from having driveways into a collector Street. And of course Allen drive is a collector Street and that’s why we need a variance. There are special circumstances that exist. That strict application of the standards adopted in this development code would result in undue hardship or practical difficulties for the owner of Gila states. And these circumstances really include, number one, the parcel has access to Ninth Avenue and Allen drive. Ninth Avenue is an arterial Street. And really, the same restriction sort of applies to that any law that borders and arterial street can’t really have a driveway. Allen drive as a collector Street as I mentioned before, it does not allow direct driveway access from a residential lot.
Unknown Speaker 24:33
Any point along Ninth Avenue is too close with the intersection with Allen drive. So if we were to do something with Ninth Avenue, for instance, put in an alley or something like that. That would be you know, somewhere around 150 feet from Allen drive which is awfully close. So we don’t really view a an alley as a as a good solution. The ally in general won’t work with our current plan. So we don’t want to propose any kind of an ally anyway. The following factors shall be considered in determining practical difficulty. Whether the property and development can have any beneficial use without the variance. Well, the parcel really can’t be developed without some sort of access. That’s Ninth Avenue. And it’s Allen drive. Allen drive is logical. It’s it’s not really a very busy street. And certainly, it presents less difficulties than than the Ninth Avenue the degree to which the variance deviates from the otherwise applicable standard. Based on what I mentioned before, we are you know, very definitely deviating from from that standard. But seven homes kind of look at the debt screen again, along the top seven homes long Danya West, and another 19 homes further down, all have driveway access to Allen drive.
Unknown Speaker 26:43
Where the applicant purchased the property with knowledge of the standard, and I can tell you that the owner had no knowledge of this restriction. prior to purchasing the property. Whether the standard can be addressed through some means other than a variance, we really understand a variance or some sort of exception as the only way to provide access to these nine lots anyway. Whether the purpose and intent behind the regulation would be maintained by granting the variance. Well, Allen drive is is really not a typical collector Street. As a matter of fact, it was constructed as a collector street with with Golden Pond estates filing number two, before the requirement for no driveways occurred. So anyway, if you if you really go down Allen Street, it kind of feels more like a local street rather than a collector street anyway. 26 homes in Golden Pond estates currently have driveway access to Allen drive. So we feel the intent of the overall restriction will be maintained. Because the if you really had a collector Street, then that might be a very good reason not to have driveways. But for this street, which is which seems local and because the neighboring subdivisions are using the street for their own driveways, it seems logical. And I don’t think that that that would necessarily mean that the that the the restriction was somehow being violated. A variance shall not nullify your impair the purpose and intent of the code or the comprehensive plan. So we kind of feel because of the nature of the street, this is essentially a special circumstance. And we’re not nullify or impair the purpose or the intent of the code of a comprehensive plan. A variance shall not adversely impact surrounding properties, neighborhoods or the natural environment. Since the surrounding properties really already use Allen drive for access, we don’t feel that there’s really any impact to the surrounding properties. The street itself is a fairly wide street also. So it’s not going to be congested from from people backing into each other or anything like that. A variant shall not create a building or fire code violation or other safety hazard. This variance will not create a building or fire code violation or other safety hazard. A variance shall not be granted for self imposed hardship. We’re not really asking for this variance to alleviate any self imposed hardship. A variance shall allow only The least deviation from the standard that will afford relief. This variance really asked for nothing more than the essential driveway access to Allen drive for the nine proposed homes. And that basically is the end of my presentation.
Unknown Speaker 30:20
Thank you very much. This is a public hearing item. At this time, I would like to open it up for public invited to be heard. I will go ahead and start with the two people who had signed up ahead of time. So Kenny ference?
Unknown Speaker 30:48
So once again, state your name and address for the record and you can ask any, if you can ask a question, we’re just not going to be able to answer it. And then you can also make statements. Okay, so, but this is your chance to get things out so that we understand your concerns. Right.
Unknown Speaker 31:06
Connie forense 861 wigeon drive in Longmont. And frankly, it’s easier for me to go ahead and put the questions out there than to think about how to turn them into a statement. So I guess I have wondered whether there any have been any changes since the neighborhood information session, which was in December 2021. And I wonder if the prairie dog plans for the plants for prairie dog removal, cover the fact that the prairie dogs have moved on to neighboring properties. Since that neighborhood information meeting in December 2021. I, I have wondered how the drainage is going to be handled. So I was glad to know that there have been under drains for foundations to mitigate mitigate high groundwater because it is the lowest spot in the neighborhood. And I’ve I have wondered whether there are plans for a lot of fill dirt because of that low spot that might then subsequently affect height limits on the houses. And I am of course curious to know when work might begin. So that’s most of it. And I thank you. Okay, thank
Unknown Speaker 32:33
you, Connie. Next, and Hunter, Mike Hunter. Good evening. Good evening, once again, state your name and address Michael
Unknown Speaker 32:49
Hunter 843. Which drive. One concern I have is that when they built doing a West, they went down 30 feet from the level of land now to create a foundation enough to support the foundations of the home. And from that point where they started to where the starting point of gills states is like 30 feet. So that means if they go down 30 feet, so now we’re down 60 feet, from least the point of where our front yard is. And I’m a little bit concerned about that drainage park because I understand at one time, there was a creek that ran really from the Ninth Street to the southwest corner of Donegal west on night on hoever. So that’s a concern. And also, I know that in the past the lake that is up on behind the retirement home on Ninth Street, that that is heavy rains and flooding. And when that flooded it all came down through that whole center section and flooded that area. So it’s a concern as to the drainage and and the water levels of that area. Maybe not so much for us because we’re up but the people who down below. The other thing I’m wondering about is is how the distribution of the two story homes. I mean, let’s face it, one of our concerns is our view. Because we paid extra money for that view where we are. And now you know if we at one time I think the last proposal we heard in 2020 was for single level homes. Now we’re talking two storey level homes. So that’s a concern for some of us based on a view that we have I paid extra money for when we bought doing a home’s housing. And in the Ninth Street, or the Allen drive? I don’t know. I mean, there is traffic on Allen drive. It’s not like it’s not us, and we can see it from our house all the time. And I’m thinking about, you know, people backing in from both sides of that street. I don’t know, again, where we are, it’s not our concern, but I think it’d be a concern for the people on Allen drive and surprises nobody here from the drive side. It’s that’s, that’s here to, to maybe wonder about that. So that’s, that’s all I have. And I appreciate the time. Okay. Thank
Unknown Speaker 35:36
you. Thank you. At this time, is there anybody else in the public who would like to come forward and have any statements to make regarding this? If not, I’ll go ahead and I will close the public invited to be heard on this item. And we’ll go back to the Commission now. For questions, comments. Thank you, Gomez.
Unknown Speaker 36:09
I’m recognized. Thank you chair. Several questions. Frank, I apologize. Is it Mr. FrankerZ, your first name, Frank Wright, Drexel, Frank Drexel. Mr. Drexel, I have some questions for you. You said emphatically. And I believe the owner’s name is Mr. Gurdev. That Mr. Green have acquired the property without knowledge that the property had this collector Ninth Avenue Allen road problem When did Mr. Good have acquired the property?
Unknown Speaker 36:48
I’m not, I’m not entirely certain when when he purchased the property, I know that he’s owned it for a while now. But I’ll apologize. I don’t know the date that he that he purchased the property
Unknown Speaker 37:03
Okeydoke. Zach, decide question two that you’ve stated that the property was annexed in 2005. And I believe that your report indicated that since the annexation, that this collector street limitation has changed. Do you know when the collector street limitation was imposed? Or when it was adopted by the code?
Unknown Speaker 37:26
Sure, Commissioner height it was in 2018 when that rule took effect, like the new code update.
Unknown Speaker 37:32
So back to you, Mr. Jack.
Unknown Speaker 37:34
So apparently, apparently he purchased the property in 2006 2006. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 37:40
but prior to 2018 when the standard came into effect, that helps me a lot. Though I do have some questions regarding practicality, which are when I look at the map, the east side of the property looks like it’s I don’t know why it’s tingling, but I apologize. The side of the property appears to have a 20 foot buffer which are you’ve called an outlet B, I believe. I think that’s where the abandoned ditches or the one time ditch was located. Are you calling out like be non developable because it’s the abandoned ditch.
Unknown Speaker 38:25
You know, I’m trying to figure out where exactly outlot B is here.
Unknown Speaker 38:30
If you look at your preliminary plat it shows up there I
Unknown Speaker 38:33
am kind of looking here. outlawed b No outlawed B is actually part of Denny a West and an outlet B is not where the ditches or was the ditches abandoned now. The ditches actually to the east. I’m sorry, to the west of our line. So there’s actually a 20 foot out lot between us in the lots. In Danielle West,
Unknown Speaker 39:16
okay. I appreciate that. Yeah, I like the is Daniel West, but then there’s a buffer between your lat line. And I guess that’s the back of the developable or the building envelope.
Unknown Speaker 39:28
Well, we’ve got a series of easements in there for for drainage and utilities that are bagged there. And there’s a setback line in there, but there’s no there’s no tracks. The lots basically run all the way to the property line
Unknown Speaker 39:45
to be Yep, gotcha. Okay. So my practicality issue is this. If there’s no non development standard, because it’s an abandoned easement, or there is a ditch that’s buried and you could do While back there, you could make all of your lats backloads to an alley there. Take one of your lats and make it smaller. And have that alleyway come out to Allen drive. Was that considered in your planning?
Unknown Speaker 40:16
No, it really wasn’t considered, we don’t think that, that an alley off of Ninth Avenue was a good idea I’m
Unknown Speaker 40:22
not in with not off of Ninth Avenue from the back of your life, oh, and then take like five right smack dab in the middle of your development, I included an alleyway coming out to Elon drive.
Unknown Speaker 40:32
You know, there was a in years past, there was another plan that was sort of like that, it did propose kind of it. It didn’t, it didn’t work out to be an ally in the back. But it was kind of an access that went back there. And that that was discounted. We just We just didn’t really think we needed to do that. So So I apologize, we didn’t really, you know, actively pursue. We wanted the nine lats the way we kind of oriented them. And that’s and that’s and that’s what we’ve got.
Unknown Speaker 41:05
Got you. But now my question is why?
Unknown Speaker 41:09
Well, number one, why wouldn’t you do that? The probably the first reason is, is that we want the extra lat. So to have any kind of an ally that would would go from Allen drive to the back would basically cost us a lot. So that probably is is not something that would be good news for for the owner at this point in time. But I think that that’s that’s we didn’t really see any real need even do that. If we can have alley access, on to on to Allen drive. I mean, I you know, having an alley and and kind of a strange collection of access on the property would seem to eat up a lot of ground when we can just you know, have have driveways out to Allen drive.
Unknown Speaker 42:20
Appreciate that. Zach from coming back to you or possibly playing played down? brochette? Which is why in 2018, did we change the standard for our Why did Allen drive become a Collector Street? And why do collector streets not have driveway access? Sure. So
Unknown Speaker 42:37
Commissioner height why Allen drive is a collector street, I would actually call on our public works manager, Chris Huffer. He’s up here. But I can speak to I’m so sorry, this is I feel your pain ringing, it’s not good. As far as your other question as to why
Unknown Speaker 42:57
corrector streets don’t have driveway access.
Unknown Speaker 42:59
Correct. So that didn’t come about as a result of a safety concern, which I think would sort of be everyone’s first instinct as to why that happened. It was actually brought about as a result of neighbor feedback on, you know, for example, like Third Avenue between our downtown between Main Street and Overstreet, that’s all a collector through that area. And we’ve had quite a bit of neighbor feedback in there, you know, requesting that driveway access not be allowed and other items like parking, you know, be limited in those areas. So that feedback is really what brought about that concern. And, you know, when we compare that to Allen drives specifically, it’s kind of two different issues. Right. Chris, I don’t know if you want to jump in on why LM specifically as a collector,
Unknown Speaker 43:50
thank you for sharing polling and Commissioner height. Christopher Public Works Natural Resources. When this overall development was done, and early, or late 90s. Allen drive was designated collector because it actually connects from arterial to arterial. So it connects from over on the very south end up to ninth on the north end. And that met the definition of a collector. And this is a somewhat of a hybrid. You want a collector to be a roadway that people can drive to in order to get to where they’re trying to go. So people go basically the hierarchy of roadways, they go from their local street to a collector to an arterial to get where they’re going. So this designation has remained on the street just basically for that reason, because it meets that definition.
Unknown Speaker 44:46
Is there a way to change that definition? I mean, how does how would one go about doing that? Or do we look at these things and consider them artifact by basis?
Unknown Speaker 44:56
Um, that’s a good question. We’ll have to a preface that I am not a traffic engineer, but I think I can answer your question there. Like I said, there is a hierarchy of roadways, and there are definitions that we use to set those different areas. One thing is connecting arterial arterial, we can also look at,
Unknown Speaker 45:21
let me stop you for one second. By definition, arterial arterial, that road is a Collector. We’re generally Yes. Regardless of how busy streets might be, okay,
Unknown Speaker 45:32
and so other criteria would be how busy the streets are. If you’ve got, I don’t know the exact ranges, but somewhere between 1000 to 10,000, as a collector, 10,000 and greater is usually arterial.
Unknown Speaker 45:48
Do you have any idea what the traffic count is on?
Unknown Speaker 45:51
I believe this is kind of a guess on my part. I could not find an exact number at this point in time, but is less than 500 ADT. So around 500 trips a day.
Unknown Speaker 46:05
Okay. So half of what you would expect the typical collector to be at the low end. If you’re
Unknown Speaker 46:11
going strictly by traffic counts. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 46:13
Great. Thanks. I’ll pass the baton. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 46:26
Me. Yes. Same question, I guess or a related question. So that this is implying that people are using Allen drive to get from night to over? Is that right?
Unknown Speaker 46:38
Commissioner Koehler, the intent is that people are driving from their local street or from their homes, to be able to get out to arterioles, which arterioles would in the intent is to get you different places. So that’s the major arterial to get you to the shopping center to other highways to get you through town. So in general, that’s where traffic is going. So it’s the the intent that from your home, you get on your local street, go to your collector street to get to somewhere else to get the across town. I guess that’s what I say.
Unknown Speaker 47:15
Okay. And do you is there any other like practically any other differences between the arterial and the, or between the collector and the local so that you can park on both of them? Is there a whip difference? Things like that?
Unknown Speaker 47:30
Yes, generally collectors are wider. Our standards allow for local streets to have 10 foot wide lanes, seven foot wide parking on arterial or collectors, I’m sorry. There’s a minimum of 12 foot lanes and minimum of eight foot width for parking. And generally, in our latest standards, collectors would also have bike lanes on them as well. Okay. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 47:58
Unknown Speaker 47:59
Chris, don’t don’t sit down, come back up. You’re doing a fine job in our traffic engineer. I only have one question is What did you just tell us the estimated average number of trips per day on Allen drivers?
Unknown Speaker 48:11
I believe it to be around 500 to 700. And then
Unknown Speaker 48:16
what do we see on Third Avenue? Just says For comparison’s sake, in that downtown stretch through, you know, Dover?
Unknown Speaker 48:24
I did not look that one up before came tonight. So I am guesstimating. So Ninth Avenue is around six to 7000 trips. Okay. So I’m assuming the third is less than that. So somewhere around 4000, maybe
Unknown Speaker 48:40
two kind of an apples to oranges sort of scenario here. Between Third Avenue and
Unknown Speaker 48:45
Third Avenue was definitely more busy than Alan Dreyfus. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 48:48
Cool. Thanks, Chris. Well, then I think I’ll jump to a couple questions for
Unknown Speaker 48:56
me. I’ll start with Frank over Mr. Jackson. Mr. Jackson, thanks for just presenting today. In the packet, there’s a reference to one of the reasons why this meets the criteria is it speaks about the affordable and accessible housing options that it makes available, but I didn’t hear much about these units being affordable or uniquely priced in the presentation. Would you just speak to that?
Unknown Speaker 49:25
I can’t a little bit for what I know. I believe that we are we are going to be providing cash in lieu for the affordable housing.
Unknown Speaker 49:39
Okay, good enough. Did you say you live in Longmont? Mr. Jackson? I do you tonight? Yes. For how long?
Unknown Speaker 49:51
2528 years, something like that
Unknown Speaker 49:53
long enough to know that. A lot of folks complain about airport noise. You know, and it’s a hot topic and I’m sure a lot here What are we going to do? And the folks who live in these houses complain about the airport noise?
Unknown Speaker 50:08
Well, I don’t I don’t, you know, I haven’t spent enough time on the property to really kind of know how busy that really is in terms of the airport, but I don’t really have a good answer for you. To be honest with you. I’m not really sure what the what the standard is for the city to respond to. To problems for for the airport is but we have put a recently put put a note on the on the preliminary plat that says that the property is inundated by or affected by the airport.
Unknown Speaker 50:54
Okay, thanks. Alright, let me just as Mr. Blaser a few questions. He’s like what are the requirements for notifying folks that they’re about to buy a home in airport area?
Unknown Speaker 51:12
On the city’s behalf?
Unknown Speaker 51:13
Well, you know, when someone’s buying a home, are they notified? Is it clear to them when they’re purchasing a home that they may be impacted by noise?
Unknown Speaker 51:21
Yeah, I believe that’s just part of their own due diligence responsibility.
Unknown Speaker 51:24
I see. Okay. Okay. Well, let me hit a couple other things that popped up. Immediately, I’m not that concerned about the airport noise. I think that’s on the purchaser, the buyer to be aware of. When is a new species and habitat assessment required? One of the members of the public’s acknowledge that this was done in 2020? It’s a little over two years now. When are you going to do it again?
Unknown Speaker 51:53
Mr. Goldberg, that’s a good question. For this one, I don’t believe a new species and habitat report will be necessary prior to development. The good news is that we do know what’s out there. Prior to them going out and building, they will have to survey one more time for protected species like burrowing owls, for example. So and the same for the nearby raptor nests will have to take the appropriate measures for things like that. So for this particular property won’t be necessary, but there will be additional measures in place prior to them breaking ground.
Unknown Speaker 52:24
Okay. There was a there was another look a little unfinished, there was about the UVA recommendation from the US Fish and Wildlife. I think we were looking for a referral or we’re looking to hear back from them. And it said we hadn’t what’s happened in there?
Unknown Speaker 52:44
That’s pretty common. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 52:47
Okay, so that’s not in the end part of our approval process.
Unknown Speaker 52:50
That’s correct. Thanks.
Unknown Speaker 52:53
And then I guess I wanted to go back to some of the concerns raised by Commissioner height, which is around the variance. Is there a world where this land could be developed and used without requiring a variance? You know,
Unknown Speaker 53:09
based on the the examples that we’ve seen, you know, based on this project, and kind of what was considered previously, you know, most of I think what was expected when when this property was annexed was residential, single family homes like this with driveway access, kind of like what’s across the street, you know, this one without the alleys and with with the driveways. Accessing is the sort of least path of least resistance, right? If you do something like an alley off of ninth Ave, you come in with a variance the staff may not be willing to support. There’s maybe other options to consider like a cul de sac, for example, or, you know, maybe a couple of cul de sacs off of Allen drive, but then you’re looking at having reduced lot sizes. And again, a similar situation where you have a variance Those to me are the three really most likely options. And all of them have a variance. That’s that’s likely. So
Unknown Speaker 54:07
it doesn’t seem like there’s a great option that doesn’t require a variance in front of us. Correct. Mr. Hunter? Mentioned concerns around drainage and risk of flooding. Can you just restate or, you know, remind us what? Who has approved the drainage plan? Why are we okay with the drainage plan that has been put in front of us and why are we giving a thumbs up on from that perspective?
Unknown Speaker 54:35
Sure. Well, keep in mind this project, this property is under development review now, right, Danny? Oh, West was under development review a couple of years ago, golden ponds was under review and you know, the 90s and early 2000s. You know, and various really smart engineers have been the plan reviewers on all of those projects. You know, for us this one, Chris and his team have been the route yours. One of our engineers is actually no longer with the city who is reviewing the project. That’s why Chris is here. But them and with our stormwater reviewers, they took a look and have determined that the application that we have meets the standards that are necessary to be met. So that’s I trust them. They know more about it than I do. So,
Unknown Speaker 55:19
yeah, I’m less concerned about the individual more the, you know, the muscle that is our city and our review teams and you know, have given the green light here. Yeah. And despite our concerns, or perception of there being massive flooding, or you know, it’s met the burden. And that’s all we can ask. Right. I was saying about that. Yes. And then I guess the last thing that Mr. Hunter mentioned, was concerns around views. I don’t think I don’t think considering, I don’t think sightlines or views from neighbors is really part of our review criteria. Is that true? That’s correct. Yeah. And in theory, this land would be developed. At some point. There’s no guarantee that whatever moves in here would be a ranch style, you know, housing units, or, you know, single level property, it could be two story could probably be even a little bit taller. At that. I’m not familiar with what the ceiling is right there. But it could be this height, or
Unknown Speaker 56:20
the maximum height requirement in residential single family is 35 feet.
Unknown Speaker 56:25
And how tall are these going?
Unknown Speaker 56:29
That’s all your houses, guys. 35 feet,
Unknown Speaker 56:31
I’d have to go back and look at but they’re definitely under a 30 foot ceiling.
Unknown Speaker 56:38
So they’re under a 30 foot ceiling.
Unknown Speaker 56:41
Right, basically right at it. We built them in Denver may have a 35 foot ceiling. And we haven’t had any problem.
Unknown Speaker 56:52
Okay, great. So from a review perspective, again, they’ve kind of met the burden, they’re not exceeding, they might actually be a few feet under What the What is permitted. So from that perspective, we really can’t deny the project because of the views. That’s correct. Okay, I think I’ll stop there for a second.
Unknown Speaker 57:14
Unknown Speaker 57:15
So I guess to follow up a little bit more on that. One thing I was a little concerned about was the neighbors got the impression that only ranches were proposed in the neighborhood the meeting originally, has there been a change from what was discussed. And the second story added it because it also kind of alarmed me that the community meeting was so long ago.
Unknown Speaker 57:35
Sure. That’s actually not something that I know, I wasn’t at the neighborhood meeting at the time. I’m only familiar with the application. That’s been that’s been given to us. That being said, what I will say is that we did notice the application, and we did send out the, you know, the the project that was under review, and we noticed back when it was submitted, and again now for for this meeting. So there shouldn’t be any question about what’s under review.
Unknown Speaker 58:00
For this one, do you think the applicant could speak to that about whether the same information The proposal has changed since the original meeting?
Unknown Speaker 58:13
I’m sorry, is somebody sorry? The question is, if apparently, and I wasn’t at the at that meeting, but But Dick Palmer was and he says that there was not a requirement or we did not say that there was going going to be ranch style houses.
Unknown Speaker 58:33
So the proposed what was discussed at the meeting hasn’t significantly changed from what
Unknown Speaker 58:37
you’re correct. I don’t think it’s changed at all.
Unknown Speaker 58:40
Okay. Could you speak a little bit to that one of the neighbors concerns about the amount of Phil just personally, I know I drove by that a lot when Danielle West was being built in there were was a lot of Phil, could you discuss that a little bit?
Unknown Speaker 58:54
Well, I’m gonna I’m gonna have to yield to to my engineer but I think that there’s maybe a little bit of filler going in but it’s not massive at all. I think we’re kind of you know, there’s there’s a little bit of of something that that needs to happen kind of near Ninth Street but the rest of the property is in pretty good shape. I think for grade I don’t think there’s a lot of fill going in
Unknown Speaker 59:25
Daniel Alonso civil arts for the exact amount of fill, I do not know but we do have existing curb gutter all around the site and we are matching the existing surrounding areas. So the amount of fill would be minimal. We are draining the lot from from front or midpoint to the front and midpoint to the back there just well that is taken the water quality flows and around the nine lots to the south. So the the field would be minimal to meet the existing curb requirements out there.
Unknown Speaker 59:56
Okay. And then I guess one of the other questions they had was what’s the timing like for Construction, you know, assuming you get approval, when would you start work?
Unknown Speaker 1:00:04
Depends on our client. We haven’t started construction drawings yet. So we only discussed that as far as when we’re going to get those in. So that’s something that I’ve tried to talk to him and we haven’t come up with a definitive date, where we’re going to make this middle and get those ready.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:22
It’s from the city’s perspective, is there a timeline that they have to stick to in order to be for the permit?
Unknown Speaker 1:00:30
Sure, following approval in our development review, there’s a timeline of one year to come in for your building permits. Now this is the preliminary plat they do have to go through the final plat step first before they can even get to that so they’ve got a few hoops to jump through still. Okay. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:51
Unknown Speaker 1:00:52
back. Mr. Blazic. I got one more question. You added a wrinkle that I didn’t appreciate. The height idea of taking about five and making it an alleyway out to Allen drive with that requires a variance to an alley load onto if you took all nine lots are called eight lots. Maybe they’d be a little bit or whatever. Eight lots the backloaded next out, I’d be on the property. backloaded on the east driveway, an alleyway that came out and in the middle of the lot dumped out onto Allen drive. Would that alleyway call it Gill court? Gill court It proposed as I’ve suggested entered on to Allen drive, does that need a variance? Or is that a local road Gill court onto a arterial onto a collector
Unknown Speaker 1:01:46
that would most likely need some kind of variance or exception on behalf of our fire department.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:54
Okay, assuming you could otherwise make turning radii inside this world that I’m proposing
Unknown Speaker 1:02:00
it would dead end at the top towards the bottom. Yep. And at the bottom. Yep. Yeah. So they wouldn’t be able to turn their vehicles around back there. I’m sure our fire department would not support that.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:13
Assuming you could design that, well, maybe that’s a big assumption. But you possibly could configure, now you’re losing three lights, or portions of three lights? Correct. One, nine and five, for this drive for this roadway. The specific question was whether or not that road, call it a local road if you could build it to meet fire department requirements, road requirements, etc. And then it connected to Allen road. You don’t or Allen street, you don’t otherwise need a variance for that, do you?
Unknown Speaker 1:02:55
I think what you’re suggesting is most likely not. It most likely wouldn’t meet code. Based on what I said before. I don’t know that it’s possible. And it’s hard to speculate over a plan that we don’t have in front of us.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:08
And again, I’m asking you to take hypothetically the fact that the and the COLAs X at the end could be built. I’m just assuming that they could be built. Given that. And that’s the hypothetical that you’re given the roadway connecting to LA. Does that need a variance? If you came up with a new road and connected it to collector Street? Do you need a variance to do that?
Unknown Speaker 1:03:32
It depends on if it’s a public road or a private alley. Okay, if it’s a private alley, and it meets the distance requirements between the intersections, so the north and south, then it may not need a variance may be allowed. But
Unknown Speaker 1:03:46
go because that will share with fellow commissioners. Thank you sec. I have trouble getting around 15 Oh, are 15 Oh, i j i Five the additional review criteria for variances
Unknown Speaker 1:04:09
the degree of variance seems to be minimal. The fact that the require variance seems to be absurd. But the laws the law and circumstances with which the main thing I’m hearing of why this variance is required is the cost factor. We got to chew into otherwise develop old bull land lots to make the judge road which might be ridiculous, but it’s a road that not ridiculous. It could be difficult to build. All right. It could be difficult to build. It could be expensive to build, but it possibly get you around the need for variance. We heard testimony that it had been considered at one point in time but thrown out basically because it was too costly. I have problem with it being too costly as the basis upon which you get a variance. That said, I struggle with the fact that the nature of the variance seems awkward. Weirdly needed. And secondly, this does seem to be otherwise the minimal amount of variance from the standard. So
Unknown Speaker 1:05:24
I understand what you’re trying to get at as you would like to put in an alleyway. Now, it can’t be on a lot B, because I believe B is yes, yes. So it would have to be to the west of outlawed V. Basically, it cannot connect to knife. No, it cannot connect to whatever is to the cell. That’s a lot, right. So it’s just a daily way for them internally for those and would be a lot to take a lot number five, remove lot number five, and then put a street between the collector Street and the alleyway. And
Unknown Speaker 1:05:59
I don’t know the math, because each one of these lots of 60 feet wide, they only have to be 50 feet wide. So there’s 10 feet and each lot, you might still be able to squeeze a 20 foot Road in there without losing a whole lot. I don’t know the answer to that. Because I don’t know if it’s been no one’s engineered it because it was too expensive.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:20
Do you mind if I interject momentarily? No problem. Just want to add one thing as we’re considering the hypothetical of Judds road here. For for that access to meet fire department standards, there do need to be two points of access. And that’s the portion that would most likely contribute to needing that variance. Just so we’re 100% Clear. That’s why that hypothetical doesn’t work.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:43
So now it’s a you. Correct comes in one, it goes out nine. Okay. I got it. But again, I haven’t seen engineering or cost considerations for that. And I don’t know if there’s 40 feet of extra lot available at from going from guidelines from 60 to 50 feet. Maybe it does work. I don’t know. But you see my struggle
Unknown Speaker 1:07:06
with so the question then becomes then getting back to isn’t self imposed, because he bought the area before this was needed?
Unknown Speaker 1:07:18
Well, okay, so is that is that self imposed? Or is the failure to consider this design option, which isn’t presented to? Well, I
Unknown Speaker 1:07:27
do know that they did consider other options, because they said that other options that were considered now do they consider every option, but I know that consider other options, because they said other options considered what required variants, also. So this was out of the ones discussed, this was the least impactful of the variances.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:49
Get again, I think I agree it is probably the least impactful, but completely flaunts the standard. No, no driveways in the collector streets. Flaunting, I mean, it’s completely
Unknown Speaker 1:08:04
Unknown Speaker 1:08:06
which were developed prior to 2018 when we adopted the law. I hear you again, the reason that we have the look, that this road is a collector seems absurd. And in actuality, might be a good idea, but as applied absurd. But that’s where we are. And I didn’t get a good answer of how you could change that status. I don’t know if there is an answer of a petition to read to change the world classification
Unknown Speaker 1:08:47
from a collector, let’s say to local to a
Unknown Speaker 1:08:49
local, right? Because if this were a local, I don’t think we have a problem.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:54
Zack, who makes the designations is it city that makes the designations on those streets?
Unknown Speaker 1:09:00
I’ll turn it to Chris
Unknown Speaker 1:09:03
Terman. Poland. Yes, the city has designated all of our streets through our Envision logMAR plan, which is a compilation of our transportation engineering, traffic engineering, the so forth so it’d be a Complan amendment in order to change Allen drive to a local street.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:22
What does that require? Does that require a vote does that require all of the neighbors
Unknown Speaker 1:09:32
there is a process since 2016 is when we originally adopted envision Longmont there are several things that I think that we’ve been looking at to bring the Kansas City Council for an update on adoption and the planners can definitely give you more information than I can on that. Right I just might add that we do have it on our to do list update the Envision Longmont plan and that includes the transportation plan probably won’t be You this year, but it isn’t our to do lists to update it, because it is approaching five years old at this point.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:09
Time flies, and that’s a legislative act by the city council. That’s moving. I’m sorry.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:20
Oh, anything else? Okay. I’m gonna take time. I do have a quick question. There were concerns regarding the prairie dog colony and the fact that it has spread outside of this development over to like neighboring yards and other developments. How, how does the city handle that? So I understand that they’re going to get a permit, and they can work on their property to eradicate or to remove the prairie dogs. But what happens if a prairie dog went over into one of the Daniell West backyards and created a home there? What does the city do with that?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:01
Well, the prairie dog permit the major permit that they would require for the scope of work on that permit is limited to the property that’s under development. So the prairie dog that’s on the property next door, gets away with it. Does that make sense?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:20
There actually is a process neighbor could ask for a minor permit. Basically, if they have one prairie dog in their backyard,
Unknown Speaker 1:11:27
that property owner, it’s their purview, though?
Unknown Speaker 1:11:31
Could they then somehow tie that into the major application? So it’s done all at once? No,
Unknown Speaker 1:11:39
I don’t believe so.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:40
Right? It’s difficult because we have different property owners. So our ordinance is really geared towards this property. It’s a major because we have X number of dogs on on the certain size of site. But they move around, and now they become, you know, the adjacent owners. Property, I guess. And I believe that’s how it works. Now, we do have Don bershad, who is an expert in this ordinance all the staff members to tell you the truth.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:21
No, I’m sorry. Sorry.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:27
Good evening, Chairman Powell, and members of the commission, Don Bucha. Planning. So couple things just to clarify. So as Zack pointed out, and Glenn pointed out, once the prairie dogs have left the property there, their property of the state really, and once they’ve gone on someone else’s property, you can’t make Glenn come into John’s backyard and kill the prairie dogs. If they want to work together, they can, that is allowed, but they would each end up with their own permits. So that’s kind of what Glenn was explaining is that they still would both need permits on that. But we do allow people to work together, the city has been working with some of the developers down in the Somerset Meadows development on a future park site that we have now in there, we have three property owners that we’re working with to try to make sure that we take care of them all at the same time when we do our major permit that’s going to be issued coming up this in the summer. So that’s the way that that would work. So from the standpoint of the questions that I heard just recently, those were the answers
Unknown Speaker 1:13:31
so so for the public on that they can contact, contact the applicant to see how that gets so
Unknown Speaker 1:13:42
Unknown Speaker 1:13:44
I’m trying to give them a little help here. And
Unknown Speaker 1:13:46
so So two things, if if they would like to understand the rules and want to find out what is entailed in the permit, they should call the Planning Division at 303-651-8330. And they can ask for Dawn, they can ask for me. They’ll need to do that, though before Saturday, because then I’m going on vacation, and then not wait till I’m back. But I’m happy to talk to them. If I’m gone, though, I’m sure that I can talk with Zack and Zack could answer their questions on the permitting for that. If they would like to work with their neighbor, to try to get something that’s more cost efficient, while somebody else’s main managing them, you know, work together on that. Obviously, we would encourage that. And they would just need to talk to the applicant to see if they’re interested in working with them on that. But obviously, we would encourage the permit to be issued at the same time, because the problem that we end up with typically is that the develop men will go in and remove their dogs after they’ve finished their obligations. And then during the construction, any of them that haven’t been killed and usually prairie dog holes connect and go all over. You will have prey dogs that will go back and forth between the development site and others. equals adjacent property. And so it is hard to then remove them unless you work together just because of the way the colonies are connected. Any other questions for paradox?
Unknown Speaker 1:15:13
I think that answered my question. And I hope the public has some, a little bit of help on that then.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:21
All right. And they can talk to me after the meeting, too. Okay. Perfect. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:26
Thank you, Don. Next, is going back to Commissioner Goldberg.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:34
Things chairman, first, I think I owe an apology to Zack, I think I mispronounced your last name at the beginning. No worries. Zack, what it says in the in the recommendation in the packet, it says in this case, staff have determined that the best practice design would be to allow for driveway access to the street, again, without names but teams, what what teams are involved in making that recommendation? I presume there going to be folks that are more familiar with traffic and roadway engineering than the few of us up here.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:09
Sure, yes, that’s the accumulation of everyone who reviewed the project. So myself, our Public Works engineer, you know, any conversations I have with Don and Glenn? And, you know, we all work collaboratively as a team on that stuff.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:20
Great. Well, then I think, you know, I really appreciate the discussions here. And feedback from Commissioner Hayden, our Chairman, and other commissioners, and the feedback from the public as well. Like high level, I think this is a good project for us. I appreciate a few kind of attributes of of it. One, I think if it’s if it’s in the neighborhood, it’s compatible, the project largely meets the burden of the code and the comp plan. And that’s checking the boxes right away, meets the review criteria, except for this variance that may have been a result of something that came on later after they own the land anyways. It serves our lack of housing inventory, and this is important. You know, and they’re contributing into the into the AI fund. So that’s great. No concerns from St. Green Valley School District, Excel Colorado Parks and Wildlife, you know, they’ve kind of slowly checked all the boxes. And I’m really not concerned with the variance. You know, we’re getting recommendations from, from our city staff from the various traffic and engineers, traffic experts and engineers, that this is just the best option. And any other option is going to be less desirable is going to require require a variance. Or is that the strictly hypothetical? And so I think for that reason, I’m inclined to make a motion, which is approval of PCR 2022 Dash six
Unknown Speaker 1:18:01
A. Thank you. We have a motion on the floor. I know there’s some more questions, but at this time, does anybody want a second the motion? I’ll second? Oh, sure. Yep. Yep. Here you go.
Unknown Speaker 1:18:16
So I’ll echo what Commissioner Goldberg said, I think this is a good project, I think it makes sense. If it’s in the environment, I actually feel like this is a pretty good use of the variance to, you know, the comp plan takes a broad brush approach made this a collector Street, in this specific instance, it doesn’t quite apply, given the fact that the neighbors use driveway access to this road, it doesn’t really seem to be used so much as a collector. So to me, that’s a perfect example of when to use it and bury it. So I’ll second
Unknown Speaker 1:18:48
Thank you, Commissioner Howie.
Unknown Speaker 1:18:52
I to overall agree, this project is nice project. Good project. Unfortunately. I can’t get over and I’m going to keep harping on this and to those who are out there listening into this applicant and others 15 Oh, I five requires that the applicant demonstrate to us. These following circumstances. You have made that demonstration, you haven’t shown that there’s no other practical way that can be done. I came up with this idea. And there’s no engineering to show that that doesn’t work. You need to show me that the plan that you are submitting has, I guess you can’t come up with every program. But you considered most rational programs. You have to justify why you can’t do it. You told me that it’s cost prohibitive. The standard you have to go you have to meet is that it’s it’s an undue hardship or practically or there’s a practical difficulty. The undue hardship I need this to know if it’s a cost factor how much of a cost factor Then I can measure what’s undue in those circumstances. But until an applicant can meet those strict standards for what a variance requires, I can’t grant a variance. That’s where I come in.
Unknown Speaker 1:20:13
Okay, thank you. I’m gonna go ahead now and put my two cents on with the variance. I do believe that this is a hardship that was put on to the owners of a lot after they had possession of a lot. It is not a self imposed hardship, it is one that was imposed upon them. And when I look at the fact that the lights are right across the street from them have access, have driveways, and are able to back up onto Ellen, it, if you said everything looks like it should just go ahead and be allowed to have but we have this variance rule. But I believe because they have the property before this was put in in 2018. That That, to me makes it a not a self imposed hardship. And that I can live with it. Because otherwise, we’re trying to put an alleyway in between their property and the people on the danio. West, I don’t really know if they want an alleyway between their properties. And then you’re trying to look at where would you maybe put cul de sacs or something behind them? And what properties are you going to take out? And as we said, we don’t even know what are the variances are going to be required if we tried to do something like that? I do believe that they did take a look at other things. I did take a look at putting an Loa in there and having it go up to ninth they did take a look at that option. So they did take a look at some other options. Did they cover every possible option? Probably not. But I don’t think anybody can cover every possible option. So I am for this and I am for the fact that I do not believe that this was a self imposed hardship and I’m okay with granting the variance. So that’s where I’m at with it. Are there any other questions? If not, Jane, I think we’re ready for vote. Chairman Polen. Yes, Commissioner height.
Unknown Speaker 1:22:14
Vice Chairman Goldberg. Yes. Commissioner Koehler. Chairman polling that passes three to one with Commissioner height dissenting. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:22:24
Agenda Item six a Gila C’s preliminary plat appeal process announcement. This item now enters a seven day appeal period. During this time any aggrieved party may appeal the commissioners decision by submitting a written appeal letter stating why the planning and zoning Commission’s decision should be amended or reversed by city council. All appeals must be in writing and must be received in the city clerk’s office and the planning office within the seven day appeal period. The appeal period begins tomorrow, Thursday, June 23, at 8am. And it ends Wednesday, June 29th. At 5pm. Thank you very much. And also for those people who are interested dive did say he would talk to you about the prairie dog stuff after meeting. So that is Item six A that is the end of the public hearing items other business. So now we have final call for public invited to be heard this is a chance for the public to make comments about anything that was not on the agenda for this meeting. We had nobody signed up. Seeing nobody I’m gonna go ahead and close out the final call public invited to be heard. Next item is items from the Commission. Yes, there are no items from the Commission. I know. Council. Councilman Rodriguez is not here. And so the final item is items from the planning director Glenn then then we’ll get Mr. Chairman, I don’t have anything very good. I will then go ahead and close the meeting.
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