Longmont City Council Study Session – February 18, 2020

To listen to the meeting alongside a transcript, please visit: https://otter.ai/s/aHIEg0r8QuiLS0wngQW-Fw

For a transcript of the meeting, please read below:

A study session. I’d like to now call the meeting order. Let’s go ahead start with the roll call.

Mayor Bagley here. Councilmember Christiansen here. And

Doug fairing here. Martin.

Here. Peck.

Rodriguez. Water, sir.

There you have a forum. Right. Great, say pledge.

So eventually I’ll stop having to look around

for the flag. I pledge allegiance to

the flag

of the United States of America

and to the republic for which it stands.

One nation under God, indivisible

with liberty.


anybody on Council have any? Okay, I do. Okay. All right. Councilmember Barry, what’s rocket What’s up? So,

um, I had been reflecting a lot on what Councilmember waters had said in regard to looking at preschool or Any end the Rec Center as far as having school school board or school districts support and something that I would really like to direct staff to and see if it can gain some some traction as far as interest in our in our council to have a a board to council meeting so something like legislative dinner where we were able to come together as two elected groups elected official group capacity and be able to discuss goals and priorities

yep stuff Yeah.

And Harold tells me every log will fail it very mentioned this to me I think it’s a great idea can we actually set up a time


That’s awesome. Good, good job. Thank you.

All right. Anything else?

No, no, I’m done.

kills more Christians and

Councilman waters and I went to the Longmont Housing Authority today. And they expressed an interest, not maybe immediately because they’re chill, so gathering information, but sometime soon in sitting down and discussing issues with the city and long one Housing Authority so that we could have a better relationship. I don’t think this will be useful unless, I mean, I do think this will be very useful, but I also think it’s essential that their investment board also sit down with us, so that we have all three bodies. So I would like to direct staff to explore that possibility over the next few months.

That’s a good idea to so can we do that too? Cool. Alright

guys, we’re back. Saying There we go.

So first of all, I want to apologize for being late. I was so intrigued with this packet. I lost track of time. So I would like to direct staff to bring back our conversation about who we’re going to put on the Lh a board. I don’t think that we ever ratified that as a council. So we need to bring that back as to who, who we’re going to put on the board. La che.

I think we did ratify

the third member,

right? I haven’t appointed anybody.

Oh, well, let’s bring it back and appoint somebody so we can right away,

but I don’t want to Anybody yet?

Oh, okay.

We can vote yes. And talk about it. I mean, we put on the agenda. I just don’t want to talk offline. Okay, but I don’t. But we can we can talk offline, but they don’t. Okay. Yeah. So, but the, and I was and I understand that we have to ratify do that. Yeah. All right. Anybody else? waters?

Thanks very badly. This is not giving direction this gap, but I’m gonna do this.

Maybe it’s a privilege to speak in your MC.

Yeah, I just, I’m mindful of

the of the feedback.

But I’ll do it now rather than later in the meeting.

In our last I think it was the last time we met. I commented on a march 13 event, where the governor was going to be a town and with around the breakfast with the focus on early childhood education, both his agenda and what we’re doing. Just late today. I got we got an email number of us from his office that there was a snap In terms of scheduling and their office, they’re now talking about the 27th of March. And I’m certain that’s gonna have to be confirmed, but that’s the date they offered. So I know invitations went out to a bunch of people today, inviting them to an event on March 13. Trying to get ahead of this. So if anybody got an invitation, they’ll get a second invitation saying whoops. Without fingerpointing just whoops, and then asking people to hold the date for the 27th. And hopefully, we could secure the museum that date, which is the venue we were going to use on the 13th. Just so all the council members would be

invited. What What time will that be?

It’ll be a, at least the initial

event was scheduled to be to start at 730 in the morning with a breakfast and run through 10 o’clock in the morning. I know it’s a long stretch. But the governor comes at nine there’s a couple of things we want to do ahead of time, including sharing the the

no small matter video, so

There’s a herald. There’s a Platte River Power Authority Board meeting that morning. So just something we have to talk about. Just figure out how to coordinate this because I’d like to be at both. So, but the governor is probably more important. So all right, anybody else? Alright, cool. Let’s move on. Alright, let’s go. I don’t have the public invite. All right. Thank you. Beans. All right. Let’s move on to public invited to be heard. Just a quick reminder, everybody gets three minutes, three minutes. Don’t care if we love it, hate it. We’re

gonna have to shut you up.

But please address the chair. If anyone’s gonna yell, yell at me, I guess is kind of the norm. So let’s go ahead and start with Scott Cunningham. If people come up if you could state your name and address for the record, that’d be great.

My name is Scott Cunningham. I live in Denver, 3771 South now. This is way, Denver 80237 and I am a I’m an integrative physician here to address the kind of the 5g sort of thing. Can I start? You

can go ahead.

Alright, well Greetings, Mr. Mayor and esteemed members of city council and other stakeholders from the community at large. Thank you for this opportunity to address the council. We are here to add to the ongoing discussion about the health effects of certain features of long lines, excellent telecommunications infrastructure, and we hope to provide direction to the council to make decisions for this beautiful city based not only on expedience and appeal to popular demand, but also based on appeal to a robust scientific literature that as you’ll see, demonstrates that wireless forms of telecommunications infrastructure or overtly harmful to any biological system ever tested. We want to start by applauding the city of Longmont for having the vision to put into place the most advanced fiber network in the country. As I understand, in keeping with this overall vision for safe and highly efficient connectivity, we’d like to encourage the council to continue to expand on the excellent fiber optic system now in place using fiber optic devices, rather than the more archaic wireless devices. Accordingly as the blazing one gigabyte per second to a download speed of, of your city wide fiber optic system is well known. We’d like to focus briefly on the particular disadvantages Wireless elements seen in older telecommunication systems. Before we jump into the scientific analysis of these technologies, we’d like to provide a cliff note style description of elements of the wireless system under consideration in order to facilitate unity in our understanding not only for city council members but also for community stakeholders in attendance this this evening, a cell tower or I should tell this to my patients. A cell tower or other wireless facility of any type is basically a two way radio station for your cell phone with an important difference. And the difference is cell towers, cell phones and smart meters use microwaves to talk to each other and yes, when we say microwaves The same to put we were talking about this yesterday just before we started the same 2.45 gigahertz radio frequency wave form used by the microwave oven on your kitchen counter.

said it. That’s it. Okay,

but thank you have your this is your handout right here right the dangers of 5g will read through it. Okay, thank you, sir. All right, Joe Kelly.

I’m a lot shorter than he was. I’m doing part two of this and my name is not Bill Kelly. It is doe as in doe a deer. Kelly. Okay. Did you want my address? I’m in long Monte n

that I’ve never made anyone give their address? I just asked for it. But okay, you’re along. mantine Welcome along Monte and wiper long monster. Okay.

So we were talking about

the 2.45 gigahertz radio frequency wave form used by the microwave oven mobile

one second. I’m sorry. It’s a new system. Can you please start again? I’m sorry.

Yeah, we’re talking about Can I start? Yep. 2.45 gigahertz radio frequency wave form used by the microwave oven, on your kitchen counter if you have one, which I don’t. If you are surprised by this, please know that many people are not even aware of this. In fact, we felt it was important to provide credible documentation of this, which you will find on page

two of this report here.

So let’s talk about the elephant in the room here. What does scientific studies say about the effects of microwaves on biological systems? It turns out, the microwave radio frequency used by cell towers and other wireless devices, including wireless smart meters has been scientifically demonsaw started to cause numerous harmful effects to any biological system ever tested. And we have 10s of thousands of studies. And by we I’m saying science. It turns out the microwave radio frequency used by cell towers, and other wireless devices, including wireless smart meters, has been scientifically demonstrated to cause numerous harmful effects to any biological system ever tested. And we have 10s of thousands of studies, including a few that are mentioned here, where researchers found DNA strand breaks and brain cells, loss of spatial memory, reduced cognitive function, alteration of several reproductive parameters, alterations in the elemental composition of teeth, and multiple pathologies in rat, kidney and bladder tissue. Most of these studies of course, are animal studies. Since it would be unethical to subject humans subject humans to a technology that has never passed animal safety testing, nonetheless, we do have some limited human observational population studies. At the bottom of the page is a review, which demonstrated that eight of 10 epidemiologic human studies reported increased prevalence of adverse neuro behavioral symptoms or cancer in populations living at distances less than 500 meters from cell towers, how many of us live less than 500 meters from cell towers. That means that you could live as far away as 500 meters from a cell tower, which is about a quarter of a mile and you are still at risk for neurological symptoms, or even cancer and I have the neurological symptoms myself. When next slide installed the new wireless in my living room and I became electro sensitive. So now before we go into more detail about particular wireless technologies, it’s important to note that the various devices and facilities that utilize wireless connectivity

with a cell tower cell phones Wi Fi routers or wireless smart meters. All right, thank you,

he’ll figure.

Alright. Looks like Ken Andrews,

me Begley and councilmembers My name is Ken Andrews, I live in Lafayette, but I spent a lot of time coming to Longmont because why wouldn’t you? So I’m going to continue on here. This topic is really important to me. It’s my wedding anniversary today and I’m here so it must be important. So just a word about 5g which is shorthand for the fifth generation wireless telecommunications infrastructure. Turns out the 5g infrastructure utilized There’s two features that are fundamentally different from the current 4g infrastructure. First, whereas the 4g system utilize microwaves 5g utilizes a specialized form of microwave called millimeter wave. It’s difficult to find scientific studies of millimeter wave radiation, but we were able to locate a 1977 Russia review of seven studies, there was apparently not made public until the CIA declassified it in 2012. The abstract reads and parts studies conducted in humans and animals revealed that animated waves cause changes in body in the body manifested in several alterations in the skin and internal organs including myocardium, which is the heart liver, kidneys, spleen, bone, marrow, lymphatic system, Central and autonomic nervous system which is basically the brain and the spinal cord, adrenal cortex and farmers so quite a bit. Second using Longmont Civic Center is an example the current 4g system in place utilize a total of nine towers within a two mile radius of this building, along with a total of 107 antenna locations per antenna research com. The proposed five D system requires small scale densification of transmission facilities meaning placement much closer together. Some assorted authorities say as close as every second or third house. A much more conservative estimate suggests that carriers would be placing hundred and 65 new 5g small cells within a two mile radius of this building. So in summary, the microwave radiation used by all wireless systems has been implicated in numerous scientific studies as an agent of harm to biologic biological systems. The 5g system proposed by the telecommunication companies if deployed as wireless infrastructure requires the use of millimeter wave radiation with a grotesque densification of small cell transmission facilities. And keeping with the community’s overall vision for safe and highly efficient connectivity, we’d like to Encourage the council to expand on the excellent fiber optic network system now in place. I’ll leave you with this next slide is the best fiber optic system in the world. Now is the time for decision making makers in this forward thinking city to make choices that keep Longmont on the cutting edge with the ultra fast fiber optic connectivity, rather than harkening back to the early era of slower and much more dangerous wireless facilities. If the council sees the need for direction navigating into long months bright future, we would suggest utilizing an internationally recognized authority on emerging safe high performance connectivity, such as Colorado’s own Dr. Tim Chicly.

Thank you. Thank you, sir. Marilyn.

Just says Maryland.

Well, that’s because my name is Mary Lynn.

So I apologize.

Although I don’t mind because Marilyn Yes, yes. I’m just here to underscore Fine presentation created by Dr. Cunningham and to thank Longmont for for being visionary and 5g and to ask city council to please consider having a study session with non industry experts, both legislative and in terms of health who can get the console up to speed on the work of activists, especially a core in Boulder County who are working to change the small cell regulations which were recently shoved down everyone’s throat by the FCC and to get behind a movement to return various kinds of home self determination to communities when it comes to deciding whether or not to allow in some of this infrastructure, and we’re excited. Thank you. Thank you,

and I’m alone. Monster

All right.

It looks like Curtis is it Russo?

How’s everybody doing this morning?

Sorry. And listen, I

can you get the key pulled up Mike up to me

and my name is Curtis to resume 48. I’ve lived here in Longmont for probably about 20 years if not a little less or a little bit more. I’ve had apartments here. I work here, my doctors are here. Everything I know is here in this time. Everything has gotten so expensive that I cannot afford to pay rent. I live in my motorhome on the side of the road. I never caused any problems. I’ve stayed in contact with Sandy and Tim waters throughout maybe about the last eight months or so. And along la police department as well. There’s some good people out here that are living in our motorhomes on the side of the road and We would just like to have a safe place to be able to park. I figured that if we were all together in one spot that everybody would be able to be watched and everybody would have to follow the rules. I do find on my own, I’ve got my pride I do not want to apply for housing. I do not use food stamps, certainly for churches or anything like that. Everything that I do, I do on my own, I follow the rules. I go to the Boulder County Fairgrounds do all my dumping, I’ve got all my tickets saved. I’ve got cameras on the motorhome to help protect myself against some of the population. You know, I’m just saying just give us a chance don’t give up on us. And also some really good people out here that really need this. I’m taking full advantage of it. So, you know, it’s it’s too late for me to you know, get a finance on a house or a $50,000 a year job. You know, so I just want to say thank you for letting me speak. And I hope that you guys will come up with a good solution for us. Thank you.

Thank you, Chris. Glen Davis.

Hi, I’m Glen Davis. I’m from Longmont and like curved, I’m a full time RV er. And I have noticed some of the people that have used some of the parking lots in Longmont, such as Walmart, have left traces buying and that the main thing that I want to put out there is that a lot of us are into no trace left behind and actually cleaning up and following the rules. And we’re not trying to inconvenience anyone and we’re just an alternative lifestyle. And I would appreciate any help that we could get four direction on where it would be legal for us to park Thank you. Thank you

I’ve been done. Okay.

Julian Marshall.

Good evening. No, I’m not belong monster bed. I am a transplant.

Julie partial here.

Oh, sorry.

Oh, it’s okay. The timer thing is a little bit. Yeah,

no, it’s it’s Go ahead.

I pride myself in being an American. I have been titled homeless for five years plus now. I lived in an RV now currently also on the side of the road.

I do take responsibility of my dumping legally and safely.

I have also lived in a vehicle. I know what both gambits are, I have also lived on the streets. I did three weeks in Skid Row la another three weeks Venice. I been in an island on New York, I have developed I had developed lymphatic cancer by drinking the contaminated water coming out of hoosick Falls up there. I moved back down here. And thankfully I have now cancer free. However, I don’t choose to pay rent, I don’t choose to pay somebody else’s mortgage. But I don’t live off a social security disability. I struggled to find jobs where I can because I am handi capable. I have a lot of structural damage in my back. I have a mental capacity. But that mental capacity has a three month time span. I’ve suffered from traumatic brain injuries.


handy capabilities are just that their abilities, but I have those that limit me to being able to function in your normal mainframe society. I get antsy with this. I sit in the back of the room because you know I get antsy. But I have done security Pinkerton and an SEC security in California and Colorado and I have been acknowledged by the White House. I don’t deserve this. And I’ve already been criminalized down in Colorado Springs because I was parking on the street and they made the legal. I am not a criminal. I’m an American citizen that deserves to have my own home. And that home is my choice and that is a motorhome. It is deemed a recreational vehicle but it is not. I don’t go out and have a good time with it. I live in it. It is my home. So I deem it a motorhome. We do need a place to park. We need a larger place that we can self Marshal. We can keep an eye on each other. We can see say, I’m 20 years sober. And I have 35 years off of meth Thank you very much. I won’t touch the crap again. There are a lot of those out there that are like that. We are not criminals. We are not drug users and we’re not drunks. We just want peaceful and safe place to live. Your safe walk programs could abide by that. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Miss Marshall.

I’m going to slaughter this one. Darlene. And then could you just come up and tell me what your last name is?

Not even gonna try.

Just call me Dr. O.

Dar. Oh, okay.

Okay, well, I live in an RV too. I live in a 2013 Ford majestic, pure white. And I bought it $27,000 I’ve been homeless at start over Oh,

yeah, great. I’m just this this this system. I can’t see the clock so I keep forgetting. Okay, go ahead.

Okay, so I bought it. I’ve been homeless for seven years. I’ve lived in the churches. I’ve lived in my van for four years. Three years ago, I bought this RV me and my three sons living and We have other people in it also, if they have a night overnight to stay, I can cook and clean. I work hard. I’ve driven the bus in this town for 31 years for homeless and helpless people. I’m a good person. Well, I think I’m good. But anyway, so, so and I, I I volunteer for the recovery cafe, and I also sing in Longmont corral. And our next, next next performance is March 15. And we’re going to honor the veterans. So anyway, I didn’t got no place to go, except my RV. And my son’s got no place to go. My son Rory, he went down to coordinate entry three years ago when they first opened it up, or Is he sleeping in the back of my van? Why? Because they never call him. They don’t they don’t bother. They don’t help him. He has to blown out nice. He has a he has COPD. He also has he also has mental problems. And just one week ago, one week ago, he’s in a recovery program and and he’s going to mental health when we could go mental health called him and said, Well, we put you on a, what do they call it? The list lottery. We put you on a lottery list after three years, three years. A lot of realist. That’s what they do. That’s what it’s like living out here. I’ve had to call David Kennedy. Because people blow their horns. They treat us and mean and they have no respect for us at all. And we don’t. You should go look at my motorhome. It’s beautiful. You’d be proud to have that in your driveway. Really. And So we just try to help other people out there and I do quite a quite a lot. I do quite a lot for the community. I think I’m an asset to the community. And you’ll miss me when I’m gone. So yay for me

to start

my job. Yeah. Okay. God bless you all.

Thank you. God bless you.

All right, Clint. Share, share share us thing it should you said Clint. German thing, right like German vehicles and stuff too many letters. So I My name is Clint share. Long monitor 1633 South Vivian. I’m here is


of the partl long month 350 11th Street. Speaking as sorry.

So we should like get like a 10% increase, right.

Okay, I can’t work the TV remote at home either. So all right, but you got kids, right. That’s true. They know how to do it. I’ll invite them next week. Right go ahead

just hear from the heart along with speaking in support and as a supporter of the hope program and the safe lots. Over the last seven years we’ve done a lot with hope letting the homeless stay in our church providing meals, Christmas, New Year’s, even providing overnight shelter forum working with Joseph we’re we’re hoping to be one of the pilot lots as if this program goes forward. So just want to let you know that we’re here to support the program we look forward to working with hope and the City Council and yourself Mayor to make this program become viable. Thank you.

Thank you sir.

It’s me now I remember to stop it

That was the last guy sorry. Okay, that that goes ahead and concludes our first call public and actually our only call public invited to be heard because it’s study session. And let’s move on to you doing okay. It’s only we all we’re all right, right. Okay, let’s move on to the No special reports in presentations other than what’s on the agenda, right. Alright, so let’s go ahead to five a revisions to electrical regulations.

Good evening Mayor Bagley and members of city council. I’m David Hornbacher, the executive director of Longmont power communications. And with me tonight is Carrie spots, and Carrie is our leader supervisor, and she’s going to provide a short presentation and a brief overview of the proposed changes to the regulations governing electric service. These regulations these proposed changes will be for city council at the next regular council session. And before I get started before she gets started, quite a few of the power and communication staff

as well as other city staff

were involved in these revisions and Several here just sitting in the audience. I thought I’d recognize him before we get started. So over here we have Jeremy there and aware that I was going to do this so

you can see that they’re thrilled.

So we have Jeremy no glue, tape Medina and Rocco subpoena. So with that, I’ll turn it over to Kari.

I’m a little bit shorter sorry.

Thank you Mayor Bagley city council members. As Dave stated, I’m Kerry spots with long lot power and communications meter stop supervisor. And I’m here to present the revisions to the city’s regulations governing electric services here.

Some of the items we’d like to discuss our metering, clearance connections to service facilities and definitions

on the electric metering, clearance,

we are now offering a lever bypass type meter housing. In this tight meter housing, I thought I was going to have an arrow. So the top lugs inside that meter housing are the connections from the city facilities. And you can see on the slide the lever with the red handle that is the actual lever bypass. And this is a win win for safety of electric personnel. And it also gives the convenience of no power outage for the customer during any type of meter maintenance. So we would be able to engage the the bypass lever, take the meter out of the socket and do any maintenance checking, you know for any issues that may be happening there. Plug the meter back in reengage the liver bypass and button it up all while the customer is an inconvenience with a power outage. New phenolic badging makes it easier to read the address where we’re standing. This really helps it make it easier for nighttime outages. A lot of times our personnel are called out to respond to an outage. We want to make sure that we’re at the right location and looking at the right installation. The older brass badging was very difficult to read. And as you know, apartment buildings are maintenanced they get painted a lot of times the the painting personnel wouldn’t acknowledge the brass badge and they would paint over it, which made it twice as difficult to try and read. Where are we? Where are we so the phenomenal badging is a really great thing helps us really identify where we’re at. locating the equipment on the exterior of the building helps us to to ensure access to the equipment that we’re called out to. also helps us with future

excuse me troubleshooting for for outages and streamlining and basically making making it to industry standard. Many utilities are requiring this so that they have the access and it’s very easy to maintain and troubleshoot the equipment for the customer. New metering options for 400 amp services. now have an installation like this. A lot of customers now have electric vehicles the standard years ago used to just be A 200 amp service. This type of convenience takes up less real estate on a customer’s home or even on a business. The equipment’s very accessible in this instance as well. Master metering considerations for multi dwelling units. We like having the contact with our individual customers being able to reach out to them, talk with them and the public. On some instances, though, such as a memory care facility or assisted living facility, it makes it harder for those individuals to maybe Remember to pay their utility bill. So master metering is an option for for those that get approval from our executive director of electric services. Electric metering and clearances clarifying the physical clearance requirements from the electrical equipment. Sometimes landscaping gets in the way, and this time of year makes it kind of difficult when it’s under snow or frozen under ice to be able to actually access the door for the utility pedestal.

Whether it’s plants,


or other obstructions

who’s teasing that sweet little German he scared

me to death.

I was called out for a trip breaker and a cut seal. The customer had tried to flip their own breaker which is located in that electric pedestal there to the left. And I noticed that the fence is blocking the face of the pedestal so I couldn’t get the door. off and then when I tried to enter the yard and knock on the door to let this customer know what I was there for the dog came from around the back.

Good boy.

Good. So, you know, we’re just showing that you know landscaping can still be beautiful and still giving access to the electric equipment because our customers depend on us for that reliability of their electric service. connections to service facilities. This is an electric transformer. So this is owned by LPC and you can see they’re kind of on the left where the paddles are with the four holes in the in the paddles. There’s limited connections that can be made in this type of cabinet. So for apartment buildings, they would need to lot of times, maybe purchase for five of these Transformers for just one of their buildings. So one of the options is to allow them to install, own and maintain a secondary cabinet like this, the pictures a little dark, but you can see there’s lots of room for a lot of the wires and conductors, then coming from the transformer into the secondary cabinet. And then definitions we’ve updated, you’ll notice your redlined copies that you have received. It takes a village to make these types of changes, update things and really bring things into utility standards. So some of the definitions that we changed were from General Manager to executive director of electric services. We used a lot of terminology like the CT, because we were familiar with the term that maybe the regular public wasn’t. So CT is a current transformer, or a PT is a potential transformer. In a lot of the code, we talked about the developer or the owner or the customer, and really streamlining that, because a lot of these facilities, you know, from a lecture from apartments go from a developer during the construction stage, then they go into the owner of the apartment complex, then they go into the customer tenant who lives there, but they’re all our customer. So really just streamlining all of that.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Oh, thank you. First of all, I don’t know how nervous Did you get nervous? I’m very nervous. You did great for and stubs. I mean, you took I’ve never you barely speak at council meetings. You took seven minutes. The substance was perfect. We all understand it. It was brief. It was awesome. So thank you for your work. Thank you for your presentation.

Thank Thank you so much.

Great. Good job.

Yeah, sure. Tell us more about some member.

Thank you. This is someone Yeah. So I, I had some questions about your definitions actually. And you mentioned a changing builder developer, to customer, everything to customer. So when I was going through the ordinance and reading and I saw the red line stuff, there were a couple things that I had questions. For example in a multi unit building that is under construction in the old ordinance is said developer or builder, but at the time when this is being implemented and put in the building who is responsible for that? If it is not up to code? If it is not, you’re just saying customer and I’m wondering, is that going to leave our departments kind of wondering who who’s responsible for this? I’m

so a lot of times What that is, is it’s the customer of register, whoever’s registered to pay the utility bill. So if things aren’t up to code, and it’s still in the construction phase, it would be the developer.

Okay, because that was crossed out. And that’s why I thought

it was I liked out and we just yeah, we stated that it’s the customer because it’s whoever the customer is of register, whoever’s registered to pay the utility bill.

Okay. And I did have another question on F to page 12 of this it talks about the the franchise fee under electric Can you tell me what that I know you’ve said this before in the past, but tell me once more. What is the franchise fee for because I thought the definition of a franchise fee being marketing or selling your name or so I don’t understand what that fee is for that goes back into the general fund. Okay.


good question. And so when you told us provide service into different communities, whether it’s electric or gas or water or some of those other services, it is common that they pay a franchise fee or a fee to that community. And that’s for the use of the rights away or the other access points that they have in the community to deliver their service. And so the electric utility, also, why we’re municipally owned, we’re also utility that has a right to provide electric service, and so no different than a lot of other utility providers, we pay a franchise fee to the city for those rights.

Okay. Is this passed down to the resident, the resident through the electric bill,

so that fee along with any other costs are just part of the rates. So it’s just it’s embedded in the overall cost of service provided.

Okay, and On the rates, this isn’t actually in your presentation. But for me, it’s good time to bring it up. I’ve noticed over the years that there is a city sales tax that is taxed onto the electric rate is that why is that? What are we paying sales tax for? When we’re paying our electric grade?

I’m waiting for the official answer. Yeah.

Me too. Electric services taxable. And so yeah, it’s under the code. So it’s electric services taxable under the code.

So that’s still a little confusing to me, because when we pay the right for the electricity, are we not buy electricity from the city at that point, and why are we paying a tax on what we are? And are any other cities doing this? Hey, been noticed why we have a sales tax in our electric bill.

So for example, if

Jim golden

Mayor badly members of council, I’m Jim golden, Chief Financial Officer. So I couldn’t tell you about other cities off top my head, I could research that for you and

get back to you. But under our code, it’s historically always been a part of what is considered to be a taxable service. So it’s identified in the city code. And so you’re saying what purchasing electricity, it’s a sales tax on the sale of that electricity.

Okay, and it would be great if you would research other cities in that county at least, and let us know if anyone else is doing this. Sure. Thanks. Great. Okay, that’s it for me. Right?

Right. Elsewhere Christian said

you’d have to push a button. That’s all I

know and I just my mind wandering. So I think that all of these are very good suggestions. However, I am wondering how much all this is going to cost the city and how much it’s going to cost the homeowners? Do I as a homeowner have to pay for the lever bypass and for a new plastic engraving, badging and for new meter locations.

Thank you for your question. Council Member Christians and on the lever bypass this is requirements for new construction. So as new construction is going up, then that would be one of the requirements to provide that Yeah, or, or as a homeowner, if you’re upgrading your service, then then yeah, we would we would require the bypass. And then your second question was on the engraving that is also strictly for commercial. So anything where apartment complexes where they’re going to be several meters several units that you know, they would need the main address for the community or the the apartment complex and then whatever the unit designation is,

okay, it is the, um, the location of the box is that for new construction and redevelop rehab, yes, yes, it is. It’s not so. I don’t necessarily have to

know okay.

But it is a good idea. Okay, thank you.

Rodriguez, thank you very badly. So I guess to a certain extent, just to reiterate, outside of some upgrades to say, the construction issues as far as the bypass, as well as for folks that are desiring upgrades to their, their their boxes, this will have no material significant, this will have no material change to rates for our electric payers. Currently, it would be a one time kind of deal. If they did decide to get an upgrade to their box for say, electric vehicle charging,

you are correct that this would not have an effect on rates. And several of the things that we showed tonight actually are a direct cost savings to the customer installing those new services, and they would realize that cost savings directly.

All right, that,

you know, I think that’s really at the essence of what I think people would really be concerned about when they hear about this. This presentation is Will there be any material difference in their rates? And as the answer is no, I think that these are all great changes and do a lot of good for the community as far as making sure that we have a great electric service, which I believe LPC provides. So thank you. Thank you.

And now you really doing a good job. Because you know, did a great presentation, then you took some, you took some heaters, and you did great.

Thank you.

All right. Oh, sorry. Sorry, step back up to the mic. Round for Dr. Waters.

So one is just an editorial remark. But I do have two questions for you. The editorial work would be this as we talk about costs, and what gets passed along and rates and whatnot. Just curious if anybody saw the news last night and what’s going on right now in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. No, I did. Yeah. on NBC. They had the lead story was the I don’t know maybe a half a million tons roster. It’s been, it’s now because of because of infrastructure that is falling apart, is now flowing into the bay, going to cost billions of dollars to fix. And it’s going to take years to fix. waterways that people were using for entertainment for transportation are now all off limits because they’re contaminated. And as they showed that the pipes that have now fallen apart pulling out of the ground, I reflected on our conversation about water rates this last spring and in in said to my wife, you understand all those concerns about increases in water rates, all of them were about infrastructure and maintaining the infrastructure this town needs so we never face that kind of a situation. The other editor would mark would be I’d be happy to pay for that bypass lever. So my so I had 100% reliability in terms of energy flow, electric flow into my house. Now question I lost where am My metering shows up or fits into this. Did I was there and I missed it.

This is all of these changes are actually part of the progressing Yeah, toward that am I?

So these are steps towards that total deployment, absolutely unrelated to the presentation. But related to a comment I heard earlier. I heard one during public invited to be heard someone referred to an installation that LPC did that placed a microwave something in somebody’s living room and the effects that that resident was living with. Do you recall a comment, David?

Yes, the comment that I heard was about the extension of next light so that fiber was excellent. And the only thing I can think of is they were referring to the a final install, which they may do or next light might provide which is that wireless router that you have in your home to You know, basically communicate with the next the fiber into wireless


It’s it is a, it is. It’s similar to any of the routers that you might have in your house right now, to give you that wireless connection, and so I believe that’s what they were. Well, I did.

I did. You’re right, it was okay. It was next slide. But that’s under your broad jurisdiction. Okay, well, thank you. I’d like to just not leave that hanging, if that’s an accurate comment that we heard.

So when your next slide customer, you have a choice of coming into the fiber actually comes into the OMT, which takes the the fiber optic system and puts it into a device that converts it into a cat five cable that you then run into, you have a choice, you can have your own router. So for example, I chose to get my own router which we did is when which is a Wi Fi router. That that runs off of the 2.4 and the five 4g and 5g. That’s what mine does, you actually have the choice in next light to get a joint OMT and router that does the Wi Fi at the same time and I think that’s what they were referring to in terms of next slide being able to do this, do that and that is actually up to the individual customer in terms of how they do that. Thank you.

Dr. microwaves.

Sorry, Telstra Martin.

Just as a follow up to that,

if a

if a

customer a next flight customer chooses, they can also get a an Ethernet router so that there is no Wi Fi in their home. Great.

Cool. Anybody else? Right now

final? Thank you. All right, thank you. Alright, let’s move on to the first and report on inclusionary housing.

You still doing all right, has even been an hour. All right.

Good evening, Mayor council Kathy feller Housing and Community Investment manager, division manager for the city. And I will try and be succinct, but there’s a lot of information here. So I’ll go as quickly as

I won’t yell at you again. Okay.

All right. Thank you. I appreciate that.

So first, I’ll start with the inclusionary housing program snapshot over the past year. There’s about 20 projects under development that were our fall under the ordinance. So if you remember, the ordinance became effective at the very end of last year. And so the projects that just started did not have their final plat approvals prior to, or their preliminary preliminary plat approvals prior to the effective date of the ordinance fall under the ordinance. So, as you look at construction around the community, there’s many developments that are not under the ordinance and right now there’s 20 in the development review process. nine of those have already committed that they’re providing their affordable housing units on site five or making a fee in lieu they’ve already decided that and eight are undecided and the nine to five and the eight add up to more than 20 because some of the developments are doing both fee and Lu and units are doing multiple types of units. So of the 10 total developments that are providing homes on site, five of them are rental projects and five of them are for sale projects. of the rental projects at there’s a total of 789 units within the rental developments 230 will have there’ll be 230 affordable homes, and the majority of those affordable rental homes will be provided within the market rate rental development.

of the foresail.

Projects there’s a total of 1400 total foresail units within those projects. 52 affordable homes will be provided on site and the majority of those affordable homes will be provided in partnership with nonprofits. For the fee and Lu projects that are saying that they would like to make the fee and Lou there’s five total developments on this As well, three rentals and two, for sale developments at this point in time with 48,000 is the estimated amount we will not know the finals on these until we actually start seeing building permits in certificates of occupancy issued. And then about 1.4 million it’s estimated under the two for sale developments. Those are anticipated to come in over a period of time, we’re anticipating about maybe just under 400,000 coming in in 2020. Again, those are paid at their fee and are at their certificate of occupancy. So they usually come in at the end of a project. And then about I just kind of evenly split the the rest of it between 2021 and 2022. Looking at the developments and where they’re at in the process and when they’re likely to to come in. There has been some interest in middle tier building And I have to stress that again, these developments are still in the review process and have not yet committed to, or signed an agreement, committing to providing the middle tier homes to know what tier they want to fall under or if they’re even going to do it. But the two projects that are in process and have said that they’re looking at doing that. One is at 1901, South Hoover, and they indicated to planning and zoning commission when they went before them, that they’d provide about 209 units in the hundred and 1% 210% metal or tier and 27 in the hundred and 11 to 120% tier. And then if you remember mountain Brook satisfied some of their affordable units with the veterans community project and the habitat projects. And they that covered some of their units, but not all of them. So there’s still about 49 unsatisfied units that we’re working through. what that’s going to look like so at some point those 49 units will either be provided under one of the tears, or they’ll make the fee in lieu. So we’ll know as as we learn more, we’ll, we’ll let you know about that. So looking at the current market market housing snapshot, this indicates the changes in median sales prices over time. And what you’ll notice in 2019, is that prices are starting to level off at least in the median area, and it actually is reflected in the average sales prices as well. So there was a 1.1 point 3% increase in detached homes in 2018 to 2019 and a point seven 4% decrease in attached homes. Some of this leveling may be due to more homes being available to purchase, there was a 5% increase in the number of units available from 2018 2019 in the detached home product and an 11% increase in the attached product. New Homes first date versus existing home sales. So, again looking at past years as well as the most recent current year, new homes are becoming a greater part of home sales increasing from a low of 4% in 29 2010, to a high of almost 29% in 2018. And then it dropped a little bit in 2019. With new homes making up 22% of all home sales. The income needed to purchase or rent in Longmont is shown on this chart. And you can see in 20 about 2012 is when a family at making 80% of the area median income and add our city median income can no longer afford to purchase a detached home. And then 2015 was when both the 80% area median income in our city median income wage earners can no longer afford

the median cost of a attached home. And then the rent is the purple line, the income needed to afford rents and the dashed purple line is the 50% had median income for a two person household. So that shows that it’s been as well a quite a while since household 2% households one and 2% households could afford our median rents. So this is new information. We just got it so it was not included in in your packet. This is from the draft Consolidated Plan which is being put together right now and they’re still pulling a lot of information together. But this shows that our greatest rental housing need is for households and families at that make adder less than 40% of the area median income inclusionary housing rental projects are providing on it says renal sorry, instead of rental projects are providing primarily 60% area median income units. Where if you look at the that area gap, which is about the 50,000 to 75, no, it’s probably the 35 to $50,000 range, there isn’t really a need, or there isn’t a gap showing. So we have a gap of 2300 units. Right now we’re looking at providing 230 units through inclusionary housing with again, the bulk of them at 60% area median income. So there’s a little bit of a disconnect there. And quite frankly, for market rate development to be able to reach 40% and below without some greater subsidies than what we’re currently Providing just under the are in portable housing incentives is difficult. So trying to get some of those units through the affordable housing fund application process or CDBG, funds etc, is where we really need to focus efforts to get those reach the those units. So 2019 sales, this shows new and existing home sales. There were a total of 1400 and 40 Total Home Sales in 2019. I want to say that we do need to still do a lot of scrubbing of this underlying data. This came from the Boulder County assessor’s website and my staff and I tried to do some of this and didn’t get too far into it because it does take a lot of back and forth with looking at addresses and going to the website and looking at a lot of different information. But what we found was that some in the area that’s below 80% ami We assume also in that 81 to 100% are related to investment buys and flips. Some of the lower sales prices turned out to be a deed or a trust transfer. So actually just paying a little bit in order to do that transfer of the deed from one person to another and not actual sale so we scrubbed quite a bit out of it but not totally of the seven new sales that are below 80% that are showing there on the chart for those are the blue VISTA homes that are affordable, so starting to see some of that under the inclusionary housing program. And three are townhomes that are in non inclusionary housing developments and then 2019 sales by type of home. This shows that the majority are still single family and single family homes and this Case includes townhomes but not condos. So it’s a little bit different than how we normally talk about detached and attach. The assessor’s office just does it differently which is another area what where if we have more time to scrub the data, we could pull those that information out. So this just shows that all homes are at the very top. The lightest blue, single family homes are the the next line down and then the bottom line or the darkest color are our condo units. So for single family homes 2019 sales. This just shows the difference in by the area median income prices, sales prices.

So about

93 homes were available in single family, or townhomes at 80% of the area, median income and you can see the different calculations They’re so it’s just trying to give you a breakdown of this sales prices affordable at the differing ami levels. And then this just shows new home sales versus all exists all home sales for single family and townhomes,

new homes. new build,

the new builds are yes or the blue. Yeah.

The interesting thing here is that single family new homes are trending to higher priced units, unlike the student market, which still shows the majority of homes in the 81 to 100%, a mid tier, which is that 300,000 to $430,000 price range. And also since single family in the single family category includes townhomes. That may be that may be why that skewing high in that particular ami category.

Just Just a quick one. The I know the definition of am I, but are we this at one to 100? on the previous that one, the 81 to 100 100 and 120 and greater than 120. Is that? Is that based on their income? Or is that based on the house price? It’s the house price

that equates to that


range. And so we’re not comparing that to the actual home buyer. We’re just saying that home has that price.

Early be affordable to people are stood income rate,

okay. Okay. Can we add just just on that, and what is it 30 or 30% of their income at that, am I for housing costs?

We use the 33% that we use for sale, our

current sales

was all 33 across the board, okay.

Okay, then this just shows the breakdown of sales by condos. For the condos. For 2019 sales 13 homes were available at 80% and below, and then the bulk of them at 81 to 100%. No, sorry, this one’s the hundred one 220% ami and then again showing new home sales versus all home sales for condos. And it’s interesting that there are there were no condo sales that were affordable at or below the 80% figure. Okay, so looking at our affordable housing goal, how are you doing in our progress towards that we need to create about 200 new affordable homes annually while maintaining and preserving all existing affordable homes to meet the goal. And right now we’re about 3000 units short, which kind of ties right in with that 2300 rental unit gap as well. Although We know we do need for sale housing as well as rental housing. Currently we’re at 6.06%. towards our goal or of our total housing stock is affordable. little while ago we were at 6.2%. But we didn’t have a very large gain in 2019 of units created that got their certificates of occupancy versus the number of new total new home that were added to the city. On our pipeline of affordable inclusionary homes that are coming up. This shows what we’re anticipating so 2018 we had a 1300 and 13 units that were produced six units in 2019. With a little bit of issue with getting certificates of occupancy, and then projecting forward using estimated permits from planning and development and then our estimated affordable housing units coming in through inclusionary housing. So since none of these estimates get to our 200 per year, we also need to be looking at acquisition of market rate housing and converting it to affordable with subsidies or other new construction alternatives.

So metrics the This doesn’t look too good, should have broken this slide up a little bit.

So what we’re going to be looking at and tracking is changes in building permits, and how those changes in our permits compared to state and or our surrounding communities. Changes in median home sale prices and rent prices. And their impacts of that on the inclusionary housing goal doesn’t need to change stay the same impacts on our ami targets Do we need to raise or lower those or adjust those at all, and then providing information on what the market is providing How the units are being provided. So are we seeing a shift towards all on side off the end, Lou, that kind of thing to report back on that, and whether or not when we start getting fee in lieu, Is that sufficient to replace units? Or what are we getting for the funding that that’s coming in, will also be tracking, obviously, our 12% goal attainment, and then who is being served with the program once we get things up and running around demographics and ami levels, etc. So as noted in the council communication, some of the trends that we’re noticing in a number of projects, both for sale and rental are choosing about the same proportion of making the fee in lieu to providing units will keep tracking that obviously and see if that the eight units that are eight projects that haven’t decided yet how that works. The rental affordable housing units are primarily being provided within the the development and the greatest area of rental units needed below 50% and really below 40% area median income are well below what is actually being provided with 68% of the inclusionary housing rental units at 60% of the area median income. So for future upcoming council sessions, some of the things we’re looking around code cleanup and code changes are looking at if somebody is doing renovations to existing housing and are creating new dwelling opportunities within that renovation does the inclusionary housing apply to that other residential dwellings? If they are changing the type of dwelling unit that they’re providing? Does that have inclusionary housing provided change? These, these things that are here it within this, these four bullets, insert bullets are things that have come up because they need a site plan modification or something that triggers otherwise would trigger inclusionary housing. But some of them just don’t seem to make a lot of sense. property line adjustments is another one, and then changes to type of units. So if a development was planning on doing single family detached and wants to switch to townhomes, and they’re going to provide more units, does that trigger something. And then again, we’ve talked a little bit about whether or not we should amend the code to allow a direct donation of land to nonprofits as opposed to going through the city or alternatively coming back with a voluntary alternative agreement to allow them to do that directly. Finally, there’s just some pictures of some of the things that are coming up or that are already under construction and Then questions that you might have so what didn’t we cover that you wanted covered? What should we do differently? What was good information etc.


just how many total homes are in lamotte

3438 30 something

30,000 homes of all kind of dwelling units. So 38 so you have 38,000.

So just right. So we have 38,000 homes

and the median, the median price is 446,005 98. You said and then so that means we have approximately $16.9 billion of home value. More or less, right? More or less is the medium medium price. It means half of them are above half of them are below so I mean, more or less. We can’t get the average right I mean, but I’m just saying we’ve got billions and billions of dollars. And so we’re short, we need 5.92% of that to be affordable, 10 12%. Right.

Because that’s 6.06 is where we’re at, we need to be at 12. So 5.9% is different. So just, I mean, just in my head somewhere, I’m just thinking, we need to come we need to purchase about a million dollars. I mean, we gotta figure out how to get about a billion dollar, billion dollars worth of property. And he might even argue about, well, no, no, it’s too much. Let’s just decrease it by half. It’s still $500 million with the property. So just just I mean, and so I’m just pointing out as that I mean, just the fact that the as we talk about all this stuff, 125 homes of 3058. It’s just a drop in the bucket. So it’s a pretty big problem. That’s my point. All right. Charles Martin.

Thank you Mayor Bagley.

I wonder how long one is doing by comparison with the other municipalities in Boulder County who have adopted the same goal.

So, Councilmember Martin and Mayor Begley and council, I don’t have that exact data, I can definitely get that and provide that. I don’t know that I’m sure some of the other communities do this level of analysis about their program and where they are meeting the goal. Others are just trying to get going and up to speed. So we can definitely take a look at that. I think county wide We’re at 5%. So including all the communities and and their housing units, so

thank you.

It will be good to get updates on that.

I can’t tell with your finger. Are you? Oh, I’m sorry. That’s right. When asked what happened later but

I’ll be okay.

What mood lighting

mood lighting

not good. Anyway

but waters

mood lighting,

no but mood mood lighting, I believe

was dark.

So on page three, slide number six the the 1901 Hoover project is that the trail break project okay.

Many names to that project, but that’s that was that


and had they gone? Are they were are they in the approval

process? They’re still in the whole thing. I don’t know what level of what number of reviewer they’re on. It usually takes three to four to get through.

Yeah. So it hasn’t been permitted

you I think No, no, I think they’re on their first and haven’t submitted for their second

update I had submitted once we’ve responded they’ve gone to peace pNz submitted once we’ve responded, and I think we’re waiting on their second response. Now that could be second to third. But

well, I’m pretty certain that there are some conditions for them as well as they go forward this but we’ll get to those later on in another meeting, I’m sure. For whatever it’s worth, and it may not be worth anything. I keep asking questions about the mountain book project, just like where are we with IGA? And I know it doesn’t come back till after the election, but what will their ballot questions be and those kinds of things. But I’ve also pressed the question that I asked you to press with them, and that is builder selection. Where are they with that, and the in a builder that would deliver those 200 condos that they said would be market market rates at 80, well below 120% 120%. And I’m told that they’ve selected that builder and they will deliver it for whatever that’s worth. So that’s at least encouraging that that would be it would add to that slide. According to them 200 Going into it we’ll see as they go through the process, but I would just encourage it, they selected their builder in the builders says they can deliver what they said they can, what they promised to us are.

And if I can take this opportunity to answer some of the data questions I know at the retreat, there were some questions regarding who was in the hopper in terms of that middle, that middle tier piece. Generally, we don’t drop them in until we get to that final countdown in a building permits, so that we know for sure what they’re doing. What we’ve been made aware of the gap on mountain Brook, but then also on the trailbreaker, the 1501, South over the they came in and said we’re going to do it in the middle tier, but it was an actual addition of a document to the planning and zoning commission that had the breakdown. And so we’re refining our internal procedures so that we make sure that Kathy gets that when it’s coming through the system. And so that’s what was allowing us to do that. I know there are a lot of folks still talking about it that they haven’t officially given In us anything that we can use at this point to put in this, but that’s why you only see two numbers.

First of all, I want to say what a great job pulling together data. I mean, I love what what you’ve done with this and what we can now track. And if there are two impressions for me one is I think I’m the one that move that we that we said 60% as the criteria for eligibility for incentives. And it looks to me like that might be a mistake, that it might not be too soon to say we’ve tested that for a year, let’s move it back to 50. Because that’s where it was based on the data that we’re seeing right now. Would you Is that a fair observation? Yeah.

That’s kind of where I’m leaning. Yeah.

I would say that’s, that’s part of the reason we’re monitoring and collecting the data. And I’m saying, I’ll say, I think we had it, I’ve had something Personally, I think we ought to bring back. It was probably based on the data mistake, or a learning opportunity to move it to 60 number one, number two, If it’s a, you had a question in here for whatever it’s worth, from my perspective, the answer is yes. To change needed direction, or needed to direct. Should we change the condition of land. So it doesn’t require council approval right directly to the I would say the condition for me would be it needs to pass muster with you and your team. It has to be staff approved. But as we went through that discussion a week or two ago whenever it was with Dave Emerson, and you know that to add one more step, and already a whole bunch of steps, that didn’t seem to add value for that, I’m just one person, obviously the but that was my reaction. The last observation and so I’m asking you to kind of have to check this against yours, Kathy. I appreciate what you’ve done with the above 120% the hundred and 20% down to 80% ami and then below I mean, as you kind of break these data out. So one of the things we’ve learned is that we ought to go back to the 50%, at least from my perspective. Another is that that, that we’re we’re making least progress right now is in market rate homes at 120%. A line below. Right, that may or may not be permanently affordable. They’re foresail products that I would think of as attainable, right that if we were going to, you know, under the big banner of affordable, permanently affordable and attainable at least that’s the way it organizes in my head and we can debate that. But but that but we’re not making the progress on attainable housing that we need that needs to be in the marketplace for city of Long money employees who would like to live in a town where they serve or school district employees who would like to live in the town if assuming they would like to live in Longmont because it’s bigger there. But my point is Working Families, we’re still way behind the curve on that part of the continuum. Is that a fair observation?

I think it is at this point, and I think it is

allowing the developments some time to understand. What does that mean? What are their price points? I mean, it does take them a while to get through the development review process and figure out what their financing is, etc. And they could commit to a specific target. Tear. Yeah. So I, I think there’s probably going to be some that come out of it. It’s just it’s a little bit early, still murky.

Yeah. Thank you. Nice job with. Thank you.

Councilmember Peck.

Thank you, Mayor bakley. And I want to echo what Councilmember water said about the 50%. I think we do need to lower that going forward. And Kathy, I want to talk about the book. points that you made for possible code changes. So we can just go through those one at a time. The first one about giving credit for existing houses. Could you explain to me the the difference between a home that is being torn down, or homes that remain in service? Are we talking about raising a house or perhaps building something new that would be affordable or get credit for?

I’m sorry, let me get to that.

Alright, so I am very sorry.

No, that’s okay. Let me read it so that everybody knows what I’m talking about. First one says, credit for existing houses should be given in the calculation for the number of ah units that are required. Should this be applied to a home that is torn down, or just two homes that remain in service? Can you explain that to me what you mean exactly.

So, we have had situations, where’s the development? They’re redeveloping a property and they’ve torn so that’s 710 Martin. This is a example Oh, they tore down one homes. In our in order to build additional units, one lay left on site and are renovating so should they get credit for the home that was torn down as a unit. If they’re replacing, I guess you could say they’re replacing it with one unit. So then How does that get applied? So obviously, the the one they’re renovating doesn’t have an inclusionary housing, it shouldn’t have the inclusionary housing applied to it. I think that codes pretty clear on that. But the one that’s torn down, how do we include it or not? In the remaining units, the other units that they’re building, do they get a credit for it or not? So if they build 10 units, they tore down one they build 10. Do we apply it to nine? Or do we apply it to all 10?

I would say we apply it to all 10. That’s just one. One,

and we don’t have to decide these. Oh, can I bring back examples and options perhaps?

All right, great. Mayor Pro Tem Rodriguez.

Thank you very badly. I just wanted to speak briefly to some of the data sets concerning median pricing of housing. in Longmont, as as some folks know, hopefully most folks know, I work in the real estate industry as a real estate appraiser. I’m not a broker. So I look at market trends on a daily basis at more of a micro level, I would put it where I’m looking at specific market segments. And as such, when we look at the median housing prices, in Longmont, yes, I would say they are stabilizing in general. But as far as what I would call kind of the entry level housing, which would be on the lower portion of our middle tier, the 81 to 100%. Am I category I would say we’re still very much squeezed as a market segment. We’re still seeing very high levels of competition and increasing values above and beyond the the percentages that were cited. As far as housing prices increases in the city of Longmont. We’re seeing you know, 1520 offers above listing price on Some of these properties, and I will MIT that, generally speaking, these properties are existing homes, older homes, not generally new construction homes, the new construction homes, there’s not a lot of negotiation leeway when you’re when you’re dealing with contract. But when you’re dealing with in on the market property, we’re seeing an extreme amount of competition, specifically in the 81 to 100% market segment, which is driving a little bit above, you know, it’s driving the prices of those properties a little bit above. But once you get over 120%, yes, we’re seeing stabilization. And as such, it’s tough to to not see a lot of increase in inventory, because of our policies in this specific segment, because we’re not really relieving that pressure. And that’s one thing I hope that we can find some way that we can

I mean, obviously,

I think we’re at a point where we understand that building detached housing at that market rate is not really feasible. So definitely incentivizing more condominium and townhome and attached homes, is the only way to really hit that market segment to alleviate that, that that pressure point. But we’re still seeing I would put, it’s still up at 910 percent range. He as an even at an earlier point in the year that we’re used to, because I mean, this is still mid February, and we’re starting to see the kind of bidding wars that we don’t normally see probably for a month or two traditionally in this market. And I just wanted to make those comments as we consider any sort of policy changes as we go forward. Thank you.

Councillor Martin.

Thank you, Mayor Bagley. I just wanted to add to that, that I am starting to receive comments from residents mostly renters. And they’re saying what are you doing building single family attached homes in Longmont? So it might be an encouraging data point that the attitudes of the populace are changing, but about that, too, and are expecting denser housing stock.

And I’ve had a couple of comments from people who are talking about the the solution that the markets going towards is people sharing homes, meaning getting roommates and I’m not saying that’s appropriate or inappropriate. It’s just that multiple families are living in single family dwelling units. So anyway, well, thank you very much. We appreciate that presentation and update. Thank you. All right. All right. It’s been an hour and a half. Do you mind if we take a five minute break and then we’ll come back and handle our final item of safe lots

going again

that’s cool


Alright let’s go ahead and ask the city staff to present the safe lot research presentation

And council members. Thank you for letting us

there we go.

So I’m going to give you a couple of caveats. First one is, this is really a team effort and I have my team nearby. Chief satur, Joseph, Joanie and myself are will make up the the, the research piece of this of the task force and I’ll go over the whole task forces. So if you have questions that I cannot answer, I will be phoning a friend and asking him to come up and try and provide the best answer possible. The other caveat that I want to give is this is this is a progress report. It is not a final report. We are still researching and looking into different models it is happening year long month and other places and and one of the takeaways that we may leave here tonight is direction from you on what other things that you want to know or other questions you want answered. We may have not answered in this progress report. So, you know, it’s just a caveat that we are in. We are in this is a work in progress and we hope to get more and more information to give you all what you need to make an informed decision on behalf of our community. Okay. With those caveats said, I will jump in it’s a short slide is 13 slides you received our report, and I will go through this and then we will open it up for discussion and questions. So really, this just the background is this really started and came out of our console conversations on homelessness. We’ve had three we had three and 2019, where we presented some data around what we know around who is experiencing homelessness. And in our September council conversation, Joseph brought up the idea of a safe log and council then mandate or test staff to create Task Force to do some research into the safe lock model or safe parking. I will also it’s also known as a parking. If you ever just want to google it is there there is more and more stuff being written about it. So this is the the whole Task Force gionee March Jeff Saturday, just a set of its myself, Amy scriber, Mike Butler, Jared, Devlin him, Karen Roni, and Harold Domingo’s is on the task force. We quickly met and decided that we were going to try and divide and conquer some of the questions that council had around what is the most viable model who’s experiencing it? And there’s a question of of return investment. So what do we know about what type of systems capacity housing systems we have that investing in this model what what kind of return on investment will we get versus investing in more housing or rich housing? So we broke up those three into those three teams of the task force We very quickly decided that we needed a purpose. And our purpose as a task force is really to understand what are the current gaps in the county why systems to move people out of homelessness and into stable housing? And to explore what are some temporary options that we have to address those gaps, while HSBC works on bringing new housing resources, as you know, Council approved some new housing resources in the 2020 budget, which we’re very grateful for, and we are working on getting those online. However, in the meantime, there are still gaps and how can we address those gaps. And really, the safe lot option is one of many options that we can look at that may serve as bridge housing, to try and get people to that final goal of being housed. So again, these are the three teams that we created the research team, the data team and the capacity team, the system capacity team. The research team be a lot of work on best practice research and there is quite a spectrum when it comes to safe parking models. throughout the country, primarily there in the West, Northwest in California. But there even though there is a quite the spectrum of different models of how they work, some are bigger, some are smaller, some serve RV, some sort of cars, there are some general best practices that are found in all of them. For the for the most part, one is most if not all have case management that leads to a stable housing situation. So the idea is how do we get people house, all of them provide overnight parking and some provide more, very few provide more than that. Most prep programs at this point, don’t allow RVs and we’ll go into that question in the second is primarily a cost issue. And they all provide some kind of access to restroom facilities. And they most of them provide some kind of security. And that can be done in a spectrum of ways as well. I’ve seen everything from you know, private security guards firms to volunteer security and that of course, affects cost.

But those are kind of the what you see in the models throughout the country. Those are the things that they tend to have this essential elements piece I added because I read this very interesting study done by the university, Seattle’s law school. And they were looking at, I’m going to catch up, I need to go.

Okay, so I’ve got it. My I’ve got a family member that just went to the hospital that I need to go to. Mayor Pro Tem is in charge. So I apologize. So are you after to get? Yeah, okay.

Yes, and I hope your family member is doing well.

So this study looked at what are the essential elements of successful programs throughout the country. And it really came down to three key things and being very intentional about them. I’m going to quickly cover the First two, but then I’m going to focus a lot on the third one. One is funding sources. You know, the study looked at three case studies. And each of those case studies, they were funded in different ways. Some were funded by primarily private donors. Some are funded by government, and funding. And connections to funding can also lead to different limitations on how the program works. So for example, when you get government funding, there’s a lot of government strings attached to it. Whereas when you get private donor funding, it may not be as stable as government funding, but it may open up different avenues of how you deliver the services. Then the second one is key relationships. It each of those successful models had developed key relationships with both municipal staff and in particular, with the police department. The most successful was had very strong relationships with local police departments. The final one reputational capital thought was very important. That one focuses on wherever a model is held, needs to have that reputational capital with the neighborhoods where they are located. There needs to be strong community engagement and strong community voice in how that model is delivered. Those three things together really are is the fundamental basics of making successful models. We know that that’s what that study showed. So enjoy, Joseph is here so you can talk more about his but copes part of our research team was also to get information from hope on their safe lock pilot. Now as a reminder, this pilot is being done by hope, without any formal city resources or vetting by the HSBC system at this point. And I want to correct because Joseph recently corrected me on my report. And it was also in the paper. In the report, it talks about Joseph or the safe flight pilots using navigation

as kind of its basis for intake.

Because this is not funded by the city or the county, Joseph’s, let us know that hope will be using its own intake process. And again, this is a working process. We’re still trying to figure out what that’s going to mean for how do we help people access some of the resources that is within the HPC system. Okay, but I just wanted to point out that correction, but the safe lot provides temporary parking waiting for housing, you’ll provide case management and it will add background checks on it doesn’t happen right now. People living in vehicles, not RV, primary, like I said, cost is an issue and who are not accessing the shelter and it seek and hope Seeking to implement two lots one for adult individuals and then families, a separate lot for family with children. And with a total of five to seven vehicles prologue, I think the idea is to be manageable at first to learn from it and then decide how to move forward. So here’s some of the costs that we that that we researched and Joanie was joining Marsh was extremely helpful in finding these costs. This is what it would cost if we were to provide our own RV safe lot. So we would need connections and a dump station that we’d have to create and that would be from 38,000 to 76,000. We would need of course developments, we would need street improvements to make sure that it’s a feasible place to park those RVs and those are the ranges and these are estimates. These are ranges that Joanie research and then if we were to provide a restroom facility, this is the estimated cost so Quite an investment to make, of course vehicles. And these are, these are estimates provided by Joseph are much lower. Primarily it’s focused on security and what they would provide. There is a one time if we go if hope decides to go with a shower restaurant trailer, there is a one time fee of 30,000. But we’re not exactly sure what it would the maintenance would be on that option, or to save some costs hope could choose to do a portable restrooms. And according to Joseph, it’s around $4,000 a year to rent and maintain those restaurants. So that is the research teams work but we’re doing the safe flight data team that team is working on trying to find more and more What is the need, and so with the help of Amy scriber and our GIS folks, we created a survey that is primarily being used by public safety right now. And this is just a snapshot. So this data has not been completely analyzed yet. But I did want to show Council, here’s the progress that we’re making on collecting better data. So this is a survey that public safety has on their phones, that is helping us capture data around those who are experiencing homelessness that are living in cars and RV. As you can see, the number of folks in cars is much less than what people that are living in RVs and you can see in everything, operating RVs and non operating RVs and car

operating and non operating.

that those are the numbers that are that are are coming and we hope to have a much better picture by the end of March. That that right now is our goal to to finish. data collection so that we can come back and present some information to Council. But I just want to give you a snapshot snapshot so you can see what we’re doing. And but it does more than just capture that also looks at you know, what is their family makeup? And these are all voluntary questions in context they don’t have to answer for you have the unknown you can see that the majority tend to be single, even though there are some couples and there is there was one at least at this point there was one family with children. And you can also see, you know, the vehicle if when once you click vehicle, it breaks down from vehicle to art to that other picture of RV, non operating and operating and car operating and non operating. But the majority of the of the context 72 so far have been in vehicles, either cars or RVs. So we are collecting this data to try and frame a better picture of who’s experiencing it. What we’re seeing out there. And I think this has been very helpful to us to give us a better understanding of, of the people that are experiencing homelessness living in RVs and cars. So what is our next steps? Well, as I mentioned, we continue to gather data via survey until the end of March. We are working on a systems capacity analysis. So the housing exits team that’s part of HSBC is doing a portfolio of available housing and that was in the report, you can see part of the work that they’ve done so far, and hopefully we’ll have more and then, you know, come back to Council for further direction. But this is a great honor for you tonight to to get some further direction from council to try and find out what are other questions you may have, or other things you may want to us to research.

council member.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. My question has to do with people in shelter I know you were counting contacts there on that slider, and that was my understanding. But I also know that we have up to 30 ish people a night in our shelters. So how did you end up with no contacts?


currently, the only people who have the the, that’s a great question. And currently the only people who are using the app, our city staff, city staff may not be there. So these are folks, these are police officers that are on the street. And so they may not be going to the shelter to have those contacts. So that’s why there’s no context at the shelter because these are happening on the street city that city police patrol or get calls.

Okay, so they’re not running that maybe they know that people live around their shelter using the shelter so they don’t talk to them but because the people using the shelter are on the streets most at the time, aren’t they?

They are There were some initial there. But again, I think it’s primarily those that are getting called. net or that are things that are vehicles that are being getting calls on vehicles on the street.

I understand. Okay, thank you.

He’s not getting any


Can you hear me? Oh, there you go. So I think part of this is, and we talked about this before, this is an evolution on this program. And so right now it is just with the police department, but where we want to be. Let me back up a little bit. There’s some unique things to this that helps us get a cleaner data picture. So one is the address auto populates, or you can versus having people manually input the address and you get so many different addresses that you can’t bring those together. So that that happens automatically in this app. The other point is, is it’s connected geospatially so then that goes in with our GIS system to So that we can see other things in connection to this. Now, the key point is, is they’re still working some kinks out. So they just have it with the police department at this point, what we eventually want to do is actually get this app into all of our partners. And so I know I was in the data meeting with Joseph and said, I would like you all to have this as well as whomever it is, it’s interacting with the population, they have the ability to do this. And then there’s, we have to then be able to put boundaries around who can input put what, who can see it, and those are things we’re still in the process of doing. So at full implementation. I would like to see a lot of people with access to this so that we can then get that broader picture.

And at that point, we would not have a parent gaps that were puzzling, Louis, I was puzzled about no shelter people,

we hope but again, it’s it. This is information that they give to us and so how individuals answer that could show itself in the data. But we are starting to see things as they move through with this, but we’ll know more hopefully by the end of March. Okay, thanks.

That’s ultimately against it really like like, really, like I said, we do want to get it into the hands of our outreach folks like Andy, and our new outreach person from the boulder shelter doing a diversion. So the idea we just working out the kinks so that we can get it out to the community to be more effective in capturing the gaps as you just said. Thank you.

Councilmember Christiansen,

thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. And Umberto i think i think this is a very worthwhile program to do a pilot on. I. We had a lot of people from who are living in Arby’s come and talk and I understand from the Study why it’s a better idea to do a pilot program on people living in just in cars, because it’s more cost efficient, and there are less people and all that. I do hope, though, that we can find a way to expand this to RVs. Because it’s a problem for those people, first of all, and it’s a problem for everybody else too. And, you know, I, I just hope we can move forward with it. I think it’s, this is a terrific way to start.

And we can definitely continue the research. Again, this is just initial research. There is much more research that can be done. And we can look at different models that include RVs as well so we can write this is what the Yeah, and if we can shape your comments

and if we can prove it out this way, and we can expand it to something more like will for RV and things like that. So

Councilmember back,

Thank you Mayor for protein.

I do want to make a clarification now and if I if I’m interpreting this incorrectly, correct me that our when we go to an RV safe lat it is not a permanent safe locked. It is not for people to live there permanently. It is a temporary, right, safe lot and they must be in a coordinated entry system because with Boulder County, our whole focus is to get people into stabilized housing. And so the people who are living in RVs who will be in the safe lots are in RVs temporarily while they work out of that living situation.

That is the same understanding that I have that this is a temporary solution to get people into housing.

Correct. Thank you.

And I think that’s one of the questions we’ve talked about that we may need to add is to say, if this then this to get it that very question, because that’s another level of breakdown in the data that will be able to inform counsel, you have 30 end of the 3025. One it permanent, then that’s a different conversation, based on what you asked, and that was something that we need to figure out how to put in.

So I guess in looking at funding, because one of the things and when I’ve spoken with individuals living in their RVs lights, I see it seems like I’m talking running into more folks who are in RVs as opposed to vehicles. What have you done any research on safe lots where they do have the capacity to hold RVs How do they attain funding? And how do they keep their program going?

So I have seen some models that have RVs. And again, this is we do more research. What one of the ones that is happening in San Diego dreams for change, they have an RV lot. But what they do and and i and i can look more into their funding, but the way that their RV lot works is they did not provide a dumping station or any other of those kinds of amenities, and they’d lock it up. But when when morning comes the RV is need to leave the lot and go to a certified dumping station and dump dump there, and then they may return. But that would mean that their RV has to be in good running condition and be able to do that in that they can find an access a place where they can help. So that’s one month. I’ve seen but again, I think more research is needed and I need to work on that.

So then it could be coordinating with facility with places that have facilities for dumping. So then we can,

my understanding is that the agency doesn’t coordinate that the participants have to do that on their own.

Okay. Okay. And then the other thing and looking at temporary, what is the timeframe? What is considered temporary?

That’s a great question. I don’t have a good answer for you on what is temporary. The idea is, and this is part of what the sisters capacity team is doing to try and find what is the most viable option, how fast can we move people out of a potential safe lock and into housing or other type of rich housing. So for example, we are looking at things like master leasing and locally funded vouchers we are we are trying to explore the different gamut of opportunities for housing But I’m sorry, I don’t have a really good answer what temporary means

Yeah, because again, it’s when people are, are looking for a permanent solution. Or when you are in a situation where you are experiencing homelessness, it takes even when you have like a financial setback, it takes months and in some cases, years, like back on your feet and build that capacity to be financially independent.

I can address what I do know, what I do know, is that and Joseph Can, can speak to this as well. Currently, people in navigation, on average are taking four months, three to four months to get into into their own permanent housing situation. So I don’t know if that would be that would correlate or that would that would reflect this potential safe lot model. But we do have that data, we know that it’s taking three to four months to get somebody who goes through navigation and into housing.

Okay, so we would really like so the same Watson if it can kind of mirror what, what the trends are being, what the trends are being done, and, and thank you all so much for putting this together. You know, one of the things and I hear comments all the time that people aren’t treated with dignity or respect, no matter what you’re experiencing, I mean we A lot of us are one paycheck away from being homeless, experiencing homeless ourselves. So it’s really essential that we are treating our residents with and our constituents, our neighbors with dignity and respect and finding options that will preserve that humanity and I appreciate that and you know, just having taught in Title One schools my entire 25 year career I’ve I’ve had students who’ve lived in their cars and trying to to create that stable stabilization for for our kids and their families as well. So So thank you. work you’ve done?

Well as a habitat homeowner. I’m grateful to the city for the work that you all have done as well. And the city has done I mean that finding affordable housing in long month is, as Kathy mentioned, is not easy.

Councilmember waters


Gilberto Alberto, I

agree with the comment that this is real helpful.

And so in just on the follow on to this, you made reference to just just for my own clarity, hopes going to move forward with their with their program, right. That is correct. As we continue to learn, right you our own research, and you made reference to what we want to learn from the the hope program. It would be really helpful to me to know what is it we want to learn? What about specific questions that we would like to have answered? or as close to answered as we can as they move forward? And I’ll come back to what, you know some of those, I think it’s going to be clear because well, maybe I’ll just go now go there. Now, there are some aspects. I admire what what Joseph and hope is attempting to do here. But this gets framed as a pilot, and I’m going to sound you know, they’ll be accused of business speak here. And but I have to say a pilot program with no end is not a pilot program. But that this one has no ending pilot program without a either a clear theory of action, or a model, evidence based model that we’re going to test with the questions that we want to answer with the test, does it it’s an experiment, which I think is fair, I think we had to be explicit whether we’re conducting an experiment or pilot program, because if it’s a pilot program words, like what somebody may do or could do, aren’t very helpful if you’re trying to learn something from or we’re trying to learn something. So that’s the reason for me to be explicit on what We want to learn, okay? Because when somebody says somebody may do something like well, or could do something, or there’s no we don’t, there is no end on this. It’s like, Well, what do you what do you learn from that? So I think being explicit is going to be important. Tell me about cost. What I see here on the on slide eight, a 13 rows up to $611,000. Is that the cost to do to safe lots in the whole program of seven units, seven vehicles each.

No, sir, that is the cost for an RV. Lots separated into RV and vehicles and the RV.

So we’re taking RVs off the board,

right? For the for Cope’s

purposes. So it’s the 404,000 for the four seven is that for one lot or two lots.

Joseph, I’ll let you.

Thank you Councilman waters. That’s good question. So My estimates were simply based on vehicles. The 30,000 is a one time investment for a portable restroom trailer, then it’s just maintenance. The primary cost is simply security. And the five to seven vehicles is only for our startup that will really be based on the capacity of the lot because one security person can handle up to 20 vehicles and other models we’ve seen. I’d also like to mention that the RV startup costs, there is no current model that is city funding that has that level of services for larvae lot. That would be probably the luxury version of the country. It’d be amazing. Don’t get me wrong, if the city wants to invest in that, but a lot of CD lots are so much more simple in nature.

So in the materials, I thought you were raising the funds to do that. Is it not quite as there no

i i’m going to be raising the funds for the hundred and $4,000

that’s what that’s what

That’s, that’s what our funding campaign is going to be starting next month. So that that will be for for an entire year.

But is that for is that for one or for two? Because you because it looks like you’re going to test lots of five to seven units in two different locations.

Correct. So the dream vision for me is to have two different lots for two different clientele adult individuals, families and children would be ideal. However, if I am only able to do one lot, I will look at current user demand. But there’s most of folks I’m running into our right now adult individuals because that’s who we serve, but I know there is a large component of families. So I love to be able to serve both in this in this initial setup

in the in the priority in this case would be the families or the individuals. If you could only do one,

if I can only do one I’m going to look at the largest capacity that I that I can initially run into

when I mean it would be the priority. Families or individuals. If you’re going to do one right now, you’re going to separate families from individuals. If you can only do one, which is your priority

that I don’t have the answer to yet, simply because I’m still gathering family data. And I don’t have all that yet. I know there’s a large individual capacity that needs to be held right now. And I know there’s I know, there’s demand for families too. So I can’t answer that yet, simply because I don’t have all the data yet on the families to

sew it. So if you do only one, that your estimate is 204,000.

Correct. It’s going to at this point, that costs will be same for Yeah, that’ll be the same because I can have security personnel going in between both lot.

So So whether it’s one or two, you’re, you’re envisioning the same cost,

or it’ll be a little higher because only either one more restaurant, the restaurant, okay, all right. Yeah. All right.

So you’ve got actually the probably 35th Probably 34 of the hundred and four, you’d have to duplicate or replicate in, in multiple in both places. And then you could share security personnel and looks like,

correct and part of our faith community and some of our churches have been really great and speaking with them, like the heart of long long was here today. Let’s let her sober church facilities that do have showers are very interested in this project. So I take that yeah. So that’s what I’m still trying to figure out what facility we best.

All right. Thank you. So, Roberto, I’m gonna come back to you.

Joseph didn’t mention this, but he and I have emailed back and forth. And there is plans to do what, six months, three months, six months.

So for us, it’s initially we’re going to look at this on a three month basis when you talk about pilot. Summer months are the easiest obviously for for a lot of reasons. So we’re going to look at it for the three months in the summer initially, just from logistics planning standpoint, how our faith partners are feeling about the program will talk to our participants how they’re feeling about it and adjust as needed. And to your point, counseling waters, this will certainly last longer than a pilot. I mean, these models are very successful.

I just think I think our language is important. And I think experiment is okay. I think it’s actually that’s what you do before you do a pilot. So I think that’s a good thing. Not a bad thing. I just, I just think we ought to if we could ever get together on what these things mean, it would, for me, it would expedite the, you know, the discussions and the thinking. Are we so maybe either for Joseph or for how we’re thinking about this? Are there fees are we think are we envisioning fees to be associated with a lot,

so console the waters and American Council we haven’t discussed that. So again, that’s, that’s part of what we were asking for tonight is direction. As a research team, we have not discussed fees that we We will now go back and discuss fees and try and find models that have fees

for whatever it’s worth, I assume in our in the intake process, there is some income data that we collect for services or Yes, yeah, financial status. Right. So I assume we could means testing is probably a stronger statement than it needs to be that, but there’s some, some approach to establishing ability. And I would seem to me that if if there is no fee, this is a folk philosophical statement in maybe a question. It just, you know, the mindset is, services for which people pay nothing. They value in ways that might reflect what that transaction is. I just think if we’re going to do this, even if there’s some dignity, in even if it’s 50 cents a night, that there’s some fee that goes along with this just as just from a philosophical perspective, so for whatever it’s worth, and I’m just one person talking Let me I’ll make my last statement here and then and then Joseph can jump back in. When you if we’re gonna, if you’re going to come back to us with something, it would be helpful for me. I don’t know about others to have it. Because, right, here’s a problem statement, because of x. We’re going to do why, right? And here’s how we’ll know if we’re successful. And that would all start with what if the goal is to transition participants in the safe lot to transitional housing? Then Then there then there ought to be some performance, some numbers in there, right? Well, no, we’re successful when we’ve transferred trans for what’s the right term, we’ve helped.

we’ve, we’ve we’ve we’ve helped

or some percentage of the participants in the safe lot transition to to transitional housing, right. However, we’re gonna label that that we have Some kind of structure like that, and then you can cite the evidence, or if it’s there’s no evidence and it’s just a theory of action, what that is, but be explicit on it. So, so we, it takes mystery out of things, and you can learn as you go along and make adjustments. But I think we have to be clear on the front end, why we’re doing it, what we’re going to do and how we’re how we’re going to offer successful. Okay. Thank you.

Councilmember Martin.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem.

I just want to make sure that we are not making, um, lifestyle choices on behalf of people who don’t need lifestyle choices made for them. And this is not to attack what’s being done at all here. But we did have some people speak very coherently about the fact that they have made their lifestyle choice and they are fine. Living in RVs And it would be better if the city adapted in such a way that the RV population and the property owning property population just could coexist together a little better than they do.

We’re not supposed to clap, but I’m glad you like the way I said it.

And so, I do think that one, you know, there’s a difference between living in a car where you don’t have a bathroom and you don’t have a kitchen, you really don’t have much agency. If you’re living in a car, you know, you’re on your way to something better if you can possibly get there. On the other hand, living in an RV is a lifestyle that you can choose. You can choose and have agency about living that way. And you just need to live in a community that that is adapted to it in a reasonable way. And it’s also the biggest population and people living in well maintained I RVs was the biggest population that you’ve counted so far. So I just want to put out that we need to count when we’re counting is as to whether people want to change their living situation or just want it to work a little bit better. And to acknowledge that adapting to the community’s needs is part of the RV safe lot. program. So you know, I, I think doll over here doesn’t want to be yanked out of her RV and in it’s a very nice one and she’s proud of it and she doesn’t want to change that for an apartment. And I think it’s especially since we do have a question She can drive over to the fairgrounds and pay $5 or $10, or whatever it is and do her thing over there. And then come back and park legally, even today, but if she could park a little out of the way so that you know somebody, some parent with kids didn’t get scared of her, even though she doesn’t look very scary to me that that would be an upgrade for the whole city. So I just want to make sure that as you go forward, you’re collecting that kind of information from people that you speak to, and that the solution that you come up with takes all that into account.

You actually gave us a question we need to add because I don’t want the data to be misleading and that operating means that they’re fully operating. Operating can mean that they can move it may not mean They’re not leaking and other issues. And so I just leaned over to Le Berto and said, We need to ask another question on that. Is it operating? Can it move? And then is it fully functioning?


I don’t think we’re capturing that data because that tends to be. It’s the where it’s not fully functioning and we get grey water and other issues, wastewater on the street that we tend to deal with the neighborhood. So we actually need add another question to the survey. And that’s part of the intuitive piece of this

well, and there’s Yeah, there’s probably a woman fully operational means you have at least heat that it doesn’t leak waste, and that you can move it from one place to the other if you don’t have a clean out facility, right where you’re parking. So there’s at least three questions, I think, and maybe we could ask for some advice for the people who have experience with the lifestyle as What the criterion ought to be because I bet they know.

So thank you. Councilmember

Peck. Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem.

I would like to just respond to a couple things that Councilman waters said about the pilot program. I agree that we need targets data, etc on a pilot program. But listening to the coordinated entry and the length of time it takes to actually transition. I think it would be very difficult to set a time on a pilot program to begin with, because it takes four months to a year to transition into housing. And the pilot program only goes for nine months. It kind of I think we should have it as an experiment to begin with, so that we aren’t we’re still learning. So as far as people paying for the law, I think that this is going to be a nonprofit more than likely, which means that we would probably accept donations rather than charging a fee. So I’m not sure that we can do that under nonprofit. The other thought to think about is that if these are operational vehicles, and people are working, regardless of whether their cars are RVs, chances are you can shut this down during the day. Because they would be driving if that is their main vehicle. They’ll be driving it to work, dropping their kids off, if it’s family, and they won’t have a need for one during during the day unless it’s some kind of an emergency. So those are just things to think about as we go forward. And I to address Councilwoman Martin’s suggestions. If this is a if this is a whole different conversation, if the city’s going to get into sponsoring a permanent livable RV lot, and that is the luxury


with and I don’t think we’re from what I have heard and what we were discussing, that is not where we were going to go with trying to be part of coordinated entry. But that’s just my opinion to have permanent living spaces, such as it would be like a trailer park. But with RVs. I don’t think the city at this point has had that discussion as to whether we want to go into that or not. These are two different discussions. Thank you.

Councilmember questions.

Thank you, man.

In regard to what

both Council and attack and Councilman Martin said, concerning Arby’s, I think maybe we should ask people coming into this. If we do. Move forward eventually and have an RP situation. The reason RVs can’t those the in a mobile home park is that our bees are not legally supposed to be occupied for all year round, they’re not designed to be lived in year round. But people do so I think one thing I would like to see asked is if people would like the choice of being able to be instead of transitioned into an apartment, if they would like to be transmission into a mobile home, because that is a that would give them a lot more options. They could go live at a mobile home park if they so choose. There are a number of things that are not up to code that I don’t know that we can ever make it like a legal permanent art. Be lot because it’s simply not supposed to be there. They’re just not supposed to be lived in according to code all across the United States is my understanding from my, my research. So anyway, if if people wanted to transition into something that would be a little more livable, but would still allow them the freedom of moving around. I think that could be a good choice to, you know, to help help them have more agency and still live the kind of life they want to live, but also give them a better living situation that’s a little safer.

Councilmember waters

Mike, my question about fees really wasn’t so much about the what hoax doing and I don’t know what can or can’t do with like the visa I was more interested what we’re thinking about right if we’re going to do something in the city. So I guess a question to the city attorney. If we can, if we try, we can charge fees for camping. We can charge fees for Parks and Rec us we can charge fees for a lot of things. We could charge fees, I would assume if we wanted to, for somebody to participant who’s made to participate in in a safe law. Is that a fair assumption? Or what would explain and then you’ll get to answer the next question. What would exclude save lives? If you said no.

mayor and council Eugene, may city

attorney the fees that you listed are usually for a use of a city service or property. Wouldn’t this be the use of city if a city I’m talking about a city safe flat? Oh, four cities? Not the whole project.

One would think that you could probably charge fees on those.

Yeah, and I’m trying to make money off saying that. There’s something there’s something about that and I just think that ought to be part of you know, when you bring it back that that’ll be quite And we can talk about it then. But I wasn’t thinking about it so much for hope they’ll do whatever they want to do with. with that. I do think I’ll just for me, if we were to go in the direction of the of an RV park that would be have more permanence to it. Right. This is not about transitioning. Obviously, there are different expenses that were going to occur. And I would, I would, I wouldn’t. While I might support the idea, I wouldn’t support it without expecting if people are going to participate it there is a fee that they pay not just for, for dumping, but I mean, there’s a public investment in creating a space and that participants just like they wouldn’t a campground. There would be some probably nominal fee that would go along with that if it’s a city operation.

So Councilman water, my understanding from our conversation that the research is that I think there’s an ordinance that bands RV parks in the city

is actually Correct Johnny.

Currently our zoning code doesn’t have any allowances for allowing RV park so that simply a code change the council would direct.

I wasn’t kidding when,

when when I wasn’t advocating going in that direction. I would just suggesting that if we’re gonna do it, I’m gonna come back to the discussion if we if that were to be a direction. Okay.

Okay, I haven’t been able yet to chime in so I just thought I’d give a couple thoughts. Obviously as we see the cost breakdown the difference between hopes estimates and and the estimates based off of an RV safe flight from the city. One concept is that the their permanent infrastructure improvements, generally speaking, I assume so for $275,000 bathroom facility would be more of a permanent structure than temporary structure. And I did when I went to school out in California, I had friends that went to school with me who lived in RV parks out there and so I Take it. That’s obviously, I don’t know what the ownership structure of those places were. But obviously, imagine they paid a fee to live in those RV parks. And they seem like perfectly decent places to live, as far as if you decided that’s what your, you know, preferable style of living was, and these people, and then I went to a fairly expensive private school. And these folks that were going the same private school with me lived in RV parks. So I mean, it makes no real determination on where you’re going to school what you’re doing. It’s just how you choose to live and in your mode, and so it’s really just a change of code at the city level, it’s something we really need to consider, because, obviously, not everyone’s looking for transitional, you know, services into permanent dwelling units of, you know, brick and mortar, if you will, and so I really do hope we consider that going forward. Not just the safe lots for cars because obviously if you’re living In a car that seems to be a much more necessity for transitional services, because folks are not generally choosing to live in cars out of lifestyle choice, versus an RV, which is a completely different different stuff. And I do agree with the statements are previously made about mobile versus fully functional as far as RVs are considered. And I’m sure there are folks in RVs that are looking for transitional services as well. So I think we do need to consider the the full gamut here, as we as we move forward. to really address also the problems or some of the concerns from our residents who are worried about, you know, the folks that are in front of their homes or in their neighborhoods. And so if we can provide safe places for both folks that want to make that lifestyle choice, or folks that need a transitional service, I think, you know, it just does a full service for both The folks in the RVs and the vehicles as well as our folks that are, you know, living in homes, where these tend to congregate, if you will. As such, I don’t really see any more comments I thank you so much a liberto. And and the full task force for bringing your report to us and we look forward to because as was mentioned, not the final report and and seeing some of the other proposals brought forward to the council. So, as such we’ll move along with to the 2020 legislative bills recommended for city council position with Sandy cedar assistant city manager, Sandy cedar. Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem, Sandy cedar assistant city manager and I have four bills for your consideration today. Two of them regarding mobile home parks, so part of the conversation. So the first one is House Bill 20 dash 1017 concerning treatment of individuals with substance use disorders who come into contact with the criminal justice system. So This bill is well meaning it provides safe spaces for people to be able to bring drugs and be able to get help, but it mandates it in a way that is contrary to the way that we are doing it with our Angel network today. This also creates an unfunded mandate. And so even though we appreciate what they’re trying to do with this bill, and staff is working with the bill sponsors they weren’t it has not yet changed and so at this point, the staff recommends that city council opposes House Bill 20 dash 1017 House Bill 20 dash 1196 concerning updates to the laws governing mobile home parks, so this bill defines new terms for the purpose of the mobile home park and the dispute resolution. Basically it strengthens the rights of residents and mobile home parks and because this is important, this issue of housing and their rights are important to the City Council staff recommends the city council supports 1196 House Bill 20 dash 20 1201 is another mobile home park bill and Bill basically provides the homeowners in a mobile park the opportunity to purchase the park under specified circumstances it lays out when notice needs to be given to those residents and how that might be conducted. Again, this strengthens the rights of the mobile home park owners. And so city staff recommends that city council supports 12. One. I should note that both 12 one and 1196 are up in committee tomorrow. So if the if the council does decide that they would like to support these bills, I have some contact information with Boulder County if you’re interested in going down and being part of the conversation and the bill and you know, signing piece so, Bill Committee, the last one House Bill 20 dash 1294 concerning replacing the term illegal alien with undocumented immigrant as it relates to public contracts for services. This does exactly what you have already done and removes the requirement for illegal alien certification but instead replaces it with undocumented immigrants. So of course, we would rather have a full repeal but this is way better. Nothing. So we would suggest that you support House Bill 20 dash 1294. This is a study session. So I might remind the council that if you’d like to take positions on these bills, your first motion needs to be sis to suspend the rules of procedure to do so. And then to take your positions.

Councilmember Martin,

oh, I moved to suspend the rules.

And then I moved at the count.

Okay. Oh, do we need Well, we’ll take we’ll take that. I was just looking at see if anybody had any objections.

will take the vote. Any

vote on the motion? All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed. The Motion carries unanimously six to zero.

And then I move that we the council, except

the cedars recommendations as written.

Second for all four.

Yeah. Thank you.

Can you debate

Seeing no debate. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Opposed. The motion carries six to zero with Mayor Bagley absent.

Thank you very much. And if you’re interested in going to the committee hearing tomorrow, just let me know after the meeting.

All right now we’re on to Marion council comments.

Councilmember Christiansen

I forgot earlier to mention this. But the city staff wrote a very, very, I thought a very good letter, a very compassionate and sensible letter about the problem of math. Math problems and classifying everything as one size takes all I I wanted to congratulate them for doing that. I thought it was a terrific thing to gather a whole group of people from staff just to try to explain how this sort of one size fits all. does not fit anybody, and the expense it causes and it’s horrific for the long line Housing Authority, but it’s also for well, and everybody. So I would like to, at least personally get some follow up on that. What, what comes with that? I think we’d all appreciate it though.

Thank you.

Councilman preK. Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. I was going to give kudos to Mayor Bagley I will anyway but it’s too bad. He’s not here. This Friday on the 21st. A group of people are going to Fort Worth to talk to BNSF executives about our peak service and the corridor, getting modeling and caught so hopefully some costs for the entire quarter. Mayor Bagley is going and our chief transportation engineer, Tyler stay me is going which I am very Happy that they’re going to bring back that data so that we can move forward on this project. And I’m, I have to say that Tyler is the only engineer that is actually going. And this is a modeling project. A lot of people are going just to give their input but we really needed an engineer. And I’m proud that Tyler’s going because he’s, he’s great. So I look forward personally to having that data brought back to Council. And

hopefully we can move on with this project.

See no other comments city manager.

Thank you, city attorney.

I move a German.

All in favor. Opposed. We are adjourned.